Episode 65 - Transcript - Forgiveness with Dr. Robert Enright

By Michael Rhodes | May 6, 2022

This is a transcription of Episode 65.  The transcription was done by software, apologies for anything that seems out of whack. A link to the episode is below.

Michael –
Joining me today is Robert Robert. Let’s just jump right into it. Why don’t you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about yourself?

Okay, thank you, Michael for having me on. I am a professor in the Department of Educational Psychology at the University of Wisconsin Madison, and I founded in 1994, the International forgiveness Institute, which is a nonprofit organization, to help people understand forgiveness and to work on the relationships and Community Renewal with that. I’ve been studying the topic of forgiveness for 37 years, I blinked and 37 years went by, and we forgiveness therapy with adults, and forgiveness education with children. And right now we’re working on a fifth grade program in Northern Ireland, Taiwan and Israel.

Michael –

Wow. Okay, so let’s you’re I read somewhere, that you’re someone gave you the title like a trailblazer of forgiveness or something of that nature. And so that’s, that’s the topic we’re obviously going to discuss. And as a guy going through a divorce myself, forgiveness seems like a very, very far stretch. But I think perhaps, the why that is, is because my definition of forgiveness is perhaps different than the definition or your definition of forgiveness. So let’s cover that what is forgiveness to you a forgiveness expert.

Okay. Keep in mind, I am what I would call an egghead professor. So study everything I can possibly get my hands on in English, across the world, whether Judaism, Christianity, Islam, humanistic philosophy, Buddhism, Hinduism, it doesn’t matter. And I try to look at the common threads across all of these as to what forgiveness is. And I have come to realize, because the ancients have been my teachers, that forgiveness is, first of all, a moral virtue, as Justice is kindness, patience, love. And when we forgive, three things occur. First of all, we’ve been treated unjustly by the other, or other people, not just one person. And we try, it’s a struggle to get rid of our resentment toward the person because of the unjust treatment. And here’s where forgiveness gets controversial. And because it is a moral virtue, we deliberately try to offer a goodness of some kind to that person who was not good to us. And that might be kindness, respect, generosity, or even love. It might be a kind word toward the person, or a kind word about the person to others. Yet, forgiveness is not any of the following forgiveness is not to excuse what the other did. Yes, you are encouraged to be good to that other person. But you will always say what happened to me was unfair, is unfair, and it will always be unfair. We don’t excuse we don’t forget, it’s not like forgive and forget, because we remember, but we remember in new ways. So we watch our back. See, some people are very concerned, they say, Well, if I forgive, you’re telling me to go back into this relationship that almost killed me. And I’m going to forget what happened and it’s all going to happen again. No, you remember in new ways, so that you watch your back. Forgiveness is not just calming down. Some people say you know, if you forgive and forget, you’ll be fine. Well, maybe maybe not. It because forgiveness is not about you and your emotional system. It’s about reaching out to the other and goodness. Also, this is a biggie. When you forgive, you don’t necessarily reconcile with the one who hurt you. Reconciliation is not a moral virtue. It’s a negotiation strategy of two or more people coming together again, in mutual trust. If you cannot trust the other, who keeps abusing you, you can forgive without reconciling. Another issue that makes forgiveness controversial. People think in what we call either or terms. Either you forgive, or you seek justice, but not both together. And Aristotle from ancient Greece taught me that you don’t practice any of the moral virtues and isolation from the others. So when you forgive you do seek justice. You do sequence fair, and so you’re not just giving into the nonsense of others, you’re heroically through a challenged heart. Offering goodness that the world is telling you is ridiculous and stupid. But paradoxically, actually, you know, you know, we’re going to get to this, Michael, good things happen when you forgive.

Michael –
And there’s so much around this topic, I can understand why you dove into it and and 37 years went by, because there’s so many questions that pop up. So, before we move forward, I just there’s a couple things that popped into my head. Is forgiveness, a constant practice? In other words, can you forgive? And that’s it? Or do you have to revisit your forgiveness as time goes on? When perhaps you say, oh, okay, fine. I’m, I’m accepting I forgive, and then a thought and a memory smacks you in the head. And you’re like, huh, and you have to sort of do the process all over? Is that how it works?

Robert –

It’s very typical, as you explained it, because we’re all imperfect beings. Forgiveness is not like a pill, when you have a headache, and you take the pill and the headaches gone. Forgiveness, I think of it more as a journey. It is any walk of learning, where you continue to offer this goodness, and then its petals, and you go on to other things. And as you say, you might see a photograph of the other or meet the other somewhere, and a flood of the emotion comes back. So you practice forgiveness again. But here’s what I also find, for hope for your listeners. As you practice forgiveness, you get better at forgiving, so that you can then when you jump back into forgiveness, do it more quickly with deeper results. It’s not like you go all the way back to square one and struggle all the way through it as you did at the beginning, or uses an analogy, physical fitness. When you go into the gym for the first time, it’s kind of overwhelming all the machines, you don’t know how to use them all. And there are some people really running on the treadmill and you haven’t really walked around the block very much. So you start slowly, you build up, you become physically fit. Well, let’s say with forgiveness, you become forgivingly fit, you put it on the shelf for a while, then you get hit over the head, and you start again, but you already have some of that fitness built up. So you can continue with that journey again, with better results.

 

Michael –

Okay, so I like to get if we could, can we get as granular as possible? In other words, okay, I just got hit with a feeling it’s time for me to forgive. What am I saying to myself? Exactly. And I know it’s probably different for other people, but what what is it that what, what are? What are the thoughts that you have? What are the steps you go through in order to forgive?

Robert-

Okay, the first thing you have to realize is that the injustice against you, literally can be with you for the rest of your life. I’ve worked in hospice situations with people who are 80 years old. And when they pick out the issue to forgive, it’s something that happened 40 years ago. And they’ve lived with this for all their life. So the first thing you need to ask yourself, if you want to is, do I really want to live with this toxicity that is built up in me and live with us for the rest of my life. And you ask yourself the question, Do I deserve to live with the effects of the injustice, because here’s what most people miss. It’s not the injustice itself, that lives with us, because that’s a point in time, and you’re never going to go back to that. But what is alive and well in you is the effects. And here are some of the effects that people carry around literally, for the rest of their life. They have anger. And the anger can lead to anxiety, which can lead to depression. The effects can include being fatigued. The effects can include comparing myself with the other. And we here’s the here’s a typical comparison in a divorce situation. People say to me, people tell me how wonderful person X is my former partner, and they tell me how wonderful this person is. But get the person behind closed doors and the privacy here and oh my goodness, it’s so hard. And that contrast between people saying how wonderful the person is, and you knowing the the difficulty in your human heart that comparison is an effect which can increase the anger. And when another thing that happens I want people to realize this because the journey starts with the effects and Understanding these effects is a negative worldview, where you think such things as you don’t know and can be trusted. So you have a hard time establishing a new relationship. Why? Because your trust is damaged as an effect of what happened in the past to lead to the divorce. So when you put all of that together, in the beginning of the journey, you want to ask yourself this, do I want this person to win twice? They’ve already in a certain case have won the battle of abusing me. Do I know this person to win by having planted misery in my heart for the rest of my life? And if the answer is no, then the next part of the journey is what we call the decision phase. The first phase is uncovering the effects. We call it the uncovering phase, then we hit the decision phase, would you like to try forgiving this person that’s usually met with howls of protest? By the way, person will say, What the heck are you talking about? You want to be good to this person after what this person has done to me? And I say, well, not necessarily only if you choose it, because forgiveness is a choice. But if you do, you might be healed of the effects. And by the way, how have you been doing with regard to these effects? Have you tried anything, or in fact, everything under the sun to get rid of the toxicity in your heart, and you know, what I find Michael, oftentimes, people literally have tried every possible therapy there is and talks to others and read books and gone on a good jogging program, in their hearts are still wounded. And so it’s at that point that the person is willing to give forgiveness a try, because it offers a lifeline in the ocean when it’s stormy. And they’re skeptical. People will when I talk with people who are divorced, they’ll say to me, Well, I don’t know if I’ll really be able to forgive, I will go on this journey. But I’m going on it because I’m drowning. So you see, the effects are not all that 100% bad because they get our attention. But we oftentimes rarely don’t make the connection between how we’re living a discontented life and what happened to us in the past. And when you put those together, the light bulb goes on. And then I asked the question, do you want the person to win twice? With all these injustices? And now the effects and the person says, No, I want to try forgiveness. Okay, then what should I be doing is they’ll be trying to get rid of your resentment toward the other end, take a deep breath here, client, you will be trying to be good to the person who wasn’t good to you. You won’t be excusing you may or may not probably won’t be reconciling in the same way. Do you want to try it? At this point? People say yes. So then we enter the work phase. The work phase is what I call rolling up your sleeves and hitting the forgiveness gem, we’re going to now become forgivingly fit. And in the workplace, we have certain exercises in the first are what we call cognitive exercises, thinking exercises not feeling because our feelings usually are a damaged heart. So we start by and here’s where it’s very different and forgiveness therapy for any other kinds of traditional therapy, we shine the light not on the client, but away from the client toward the one who acted unjustly, very different from traditional therapy that focuses on the one who hurt you. And we go through these kinds of cognitive exercises First, look at the woundedness this person brought into the relationship. And a lot of times those who wound us have been gravely wounded by others in the past. And they bring patterns from their childhood into the relationship with you that never were dealt with in pre relationship commitments or pre marriage counseling or anything like that. It’s just Oh, you love each other, go for it. But forgiveness would say, put on the table before you enter into a new relationship, the imperfections and wounds that each of you are bringing to this encounter. And you’d be surprised at how wounded the other is and how wounded you are. And you’re both bringing this into the relationship that changes the story where we see in context, how this person has been acting by how the person has been raised over and over again, not deliberately by others, but to hurt others and it’s happening. So you see a wounded vulnerable person with weaknesses and confusions and doubts and difficulties. It’s more than the injustice against you. Then we go to another level of this work phase of thinking, where we talk about what we call The global perspective where we talk about your common humanity. Do you realize you’re going to be trying to forgive someone who shares common themes of humanity with you? And I’ll prove it to you whether you are a religious person or an atheist, biologically, you, my client, I would say, You are special, unique and irreplaceable, because you have unique DNA. It’s true. And I say I’m an identical twin. You got it? You got me? Yeah. Okay, how about the one who hurt you? Does this person have unique DNA when that person passes away, they’ll never be another human being, like this person on the planet. Yep, that makes this person special, unique and irreplaceable. As you are, you share a common humanity, and you know what you share them worth as persons that can’t be taken away from you. You have client I would say, inherent built in worth that cannot be taken away from you, even with a divorce. Even if people whisper about you and say, Well, what did he do to deserve this? That’s shame. And shame is part of the effects. Okay, or the anger? But you know, what, when you get to this level of the global perspective, no, no, I did the best I could, I’m a person of worth, but so was the one who hurt me. And then we go to another level of transcendent perspective that we call the cosmic perspective, only if a person has a religious perspective. Although it’s we don’t go there, we stay on the level of woundedness and bringing wounds into the relationship and a shared humanity with absolute inherent worth. But otherwise, we go to this level, and we say in your teachings, let’s say it’s a Judeo Christian tradition, or you both made in the image and likeness of God. And that’s in Genesis one. It’s fundamental. It’s not just worth it’s worth because of creation, but only for the religious person. And if you say, oh, yeah, you didn’t think about it. But uh, yeah, I made it the image and likeness of God, that helps a person gets through difficulty. But then we add this and forgiveness. Does this mean that one hurt you is made in the image and likeness of God. And when you put the whole story together, made in the image and likeness of God shared humanity and shared woundedness from the past, you start seeing the person in a broader, richer, deeper way, which starts softening the heart a little bit, it’s having compassion on the person because of what was suffered by this person in the past and present, which allows you to stand in the pain rather than pass it back to the person. This is a heroic step, where not only is the heart start softening, but over time, and it can take months, we ask the person to stand in the pain of what happened. You hear that in hospice all the time, when people are grieving, they tell you to lean into the pain. Why? Because otherwise, if you tried to get rid of that pain, you’re throwing it back to the person either deliberately and when you see the person or texting or to the children, which can really hurt the children as you keep condemning the ex partner. Okay. So when you stand in the pain, you are being a conduit of good not just for that person, but for children and other relatives who might be hurting because of the breakup. Okay. Did you want to break in with a question?

Yeah, please. I got so many. But there’s one in particular, and I’m hoping and praying and I’m not I’m not a religious person. I’m not an anti religious person, either. But how do you not how does one Okay, so there’s a couple of things here. One is, I think, in the context of like, maybe parents is still sort of the in the realm but you know, someone killed their son or something. There’s not, here’s my fear, I guess is that when I start to give her a compassionate view, I already loved and maybe still do love her? How do I protect myself by staying not slipping into love? Like if I start looking at her in a certain way and being compassionate? How do I not then sort of hurt myself all over again? By saying, Oh, my gosh, she’s she was she was a good person or not, and I screwed up and I miss her. And I love her like, how do you can you avoid that?

Robert –

You have to avoid that. And the way you avoid that is by looking at the different roles. And you say you used to have a role of partner. That’s not possible anymore. possible anymore because I have the basically the evidence of continual hurt, and it’s going to continue and I cannot be in that role with this person. But I can be in a different role of respecting this person as As a human being, and I have to fight for that role, keeping in mind what forgiveness is not, I am not ever going to excuse the bad behavior that led to this breakup. And I have to keep that at the forefront. There is a reason that’s rational, why we have broken up. And I have to see woundedness, that is not in my best interest. In fact, that could kill me. If I continue this way, literally, the effects can kill people, right. And I have to guard myself because I try my best. And you have to pat yourself on the back for that realistically, not in any artificial way. And you have to realize that what you’re reaching out to here is the person in a radically different role than was the case, because that has to be the case, because you’ve given enough chances toward reconciliation, and it hasn’t occurred. Right. So then once you stand in this pain, and offer goodness, as respect for the new role, because it’s this is a person, not someone who is committed to me in a love relationship, that cannot be because we’re not excusing it. That’s when you give the paradox of goodness of some kind, maybe it’s a kind word, to relatives, or to children, if their children in the relationship, or to a friend of yours, so you’re not constantly putting that person down, which actually helps the children stay healthier. And that paradox right there of giving the goodness which is wildly controversial. That leads to our fourth phase, the discovery phase, you discover that you’re growing as a human being, you’re growing in character, you’re being more sensitive to the sufferings, and many people including others around you. And you sometimes develop a new purpose in life, which is to help others come alongside you when they’re wounded. And you can help them in their heart. And it’s there that we begin to see deep, serious healing of the human heart in terms of reduced anger, anxiety, and depression, increased hope, and you know, who you end up liking that we know scientifically, Michael, yourself. Because here’s one of the effects we see over and over again, when you’ve been beaten down by others, people tend to drift into the lie that I am not is worthy of being a human being as I used to be, we start not liking ourselves. This forgiveness process reconnects ourselves with our own humanity, and our self esteem begins to rise. And it’s there, we start leading a healthier life, where we really can move on, and there still can be pain, because you’ve given your life to the other. And you still might have pain and some anger leftover. But here’s the difference. And here’s what one recently divorced person said to me, my anger used to control me, I now have gone from a survivor to thriver. And I can still be angry, but I am now in control of my anger. And that makes all the difference.

Michael –
It’s just it’s, when I do these interviews, it I am living my life through them. I don’t know if that makes any sense. But like, if you’re talking to me,

I want to go back a little bit. You talked about trust? Does does forgiveness lead to two things? Ultimately, healing and trust, like, Can you can you do you get to reestablish the ability to trust, once you forgive. And same with healing like you ultimately need to forgive to heal and what you had seen.

Robert –
don’t really think in terms of healing from the effects. From what I have found in these 37 years as a licensed psychologist. Forgiveness is the most powerful means of doing that. And it also can increase your trust in general toward other people. Because you get the insight you see that I have drifted into mistrust for everybody, you see. And when I do that, I am hurting myself in the possibility of being open to new relationships. You won’t notice you won’t trust the other in terms of the old relationship. You won’t trust the other in terms of going back into that. But you can trust them as a person doing their best, but you have to be in a new role with that person. And here’s another issue of trust. That’s very important. Now, instead of being afraid of your effects, you know, you can’t take risks with others because the effects won’t destroy you. But you’re also wise enough if you enter into a new relationship by saying, let’s talk about our past and what each Once that’s going to bring into this, so we’re not blindsided by each other’s weaknesses. And that sets each other up for knowing each is imperfect, each has weaknesses, and you’re going to fall, you’re not going to get it right, neither will the other person, but you’re both attuned to each other’s weaknesses, and you can help each other rise up and grow in character. And that’s a lifelong pursuit that keeps these relationships interesting and vibrant.

Michael –

So we talked, we touched on why. But I’m curious, is there any specific statistics that say, anything health wise, longevity wise, anything Data Wise, that says, people that have been through traumatic experiences and abled for a and and are able to forgive the perpetrators? Is there any kind of data that shows any kind of other health benefits besides like anxiety and anger and all that?

Robert  –
Let me share with you a unique study we did with cardiac patients, a cardiac unit of a hospital, oh, man, and we screen them for deep injustices against them, and said you want to do forgiveness work, and we randomized them to a forgiveness therapy group that lasted several months. And then also, the control group had heart health as usual on the cardiac unit, such as diet and relaxing, we first hooked them up to heart monitors, and had them retell their story of deep hurt before the forgiveness program. And there is a well known fact that when people have heart compromised, the arteries to the heart, actually start narrowing when you’re stressed. And sure enough, we asked them to just tell about a calm, good day and their heart, the arteries stayed open, we said, now tell us about the deeper you’ve suffered. The arteries to the heart started narrowing. So we’ve brought up through the forgiveness program toward the one who hurt them in particular. And after several months, they did improve psychologically as we’ve been talking, and then forgiving. And when we hooked them up to the heart monitor again, much to our disappointment. Their arteries continued to narrow, as did those who had the heart health issue. As the control group, we said, oh, no, there’s really no connection between forgiveness and physical health. But we then did a follow up months later. And we found that when we hooked them up the arteries to the heart, for those who had forgiveness now stayed open. It took months for the physical development to catch up to this psychological development. But what happened with those who had the heart health issues on physical health, they still narrowed the the arteries to the heart. And Dr. Douglas Russell, who was the physician overseeing this work said, we helped these men in forgiveness, to avoid sudden death and chest pains. That didn’t happen with what happened on the regular heart unit where they were giving the best they could, but it wasn’t working. Forgiveness boss, and it’s the only study on the planet to this point, showing a cause and effect relationship, cause and effect, Michael, between learning to forgive and the improvement of a major organ of the body.

Michael –
You covered something there about, you know, months. And and this is something I don’t know, if everyone. I asked someone about healing at one point, a psychologist and I said, you know, men want to know, how long is this going to take? And she’s like, I think I don’t think that’s a man thing. That’s a I think that’s a trauma thing. And you know, and so I’m sure you probably can’t answer this, in a way, because it’s probably different for everybody. But how long is it going to take? Let’s say, I commit today? How long until I forgive her?

Robert –

Well, there’s actually been studies on that was what we call meta analyses, where researchers take a look at like 20 studies all together. And they ask, how many weeks does it take on the average before you begin to see the results like you and I have been talking, such as reduced anger and anxiety and depression and start liking yourself. And right now, it seems to be about 12 weeks, okay. 12 weeks of working on this pathway from the uncovering phase two, the decision to work in the discovery phase. And that might seem like a long time, especially when you take a look at traditional forms of insurance, they’ll give you maybe four sessions with a therapist, that’s not going to do it. Okay. It has to be longer but 12 weeks might seem like a long time, but it’s not 40 years as we saw in the hospice situation. 40 years if you don’t do this is not the way to live when you don’t have to. But 12 weeks, so okay, we give it three months. And your your anger goes down enough where you are now in control of your anger, there’s still going to be work to do, as you and I have discussed here today, but you start getting in control of your life and in your future relationships. Is it worth that? Look at the physical fitness program. You got to do it in four sessions. No, I don’t think so. Right? You’ve got to hit the gym and stay with it for at least 12 weeks and you derive much benefits. Think of it that way. You’re becoming forgivingly. It’s a process. It’s not a psychological technique where you engage in for a few times, or the kill the forgiveness bill, and zoom, you’re out. You walk a path you grow in that path was a great benefit. The statistics show us that.

Michael –

What this is going to be probably a maybe silly question, why is it so hard?

Robert –
Here’s why it’s so hard. You’ve already been hurt by another. And now you’re asked to take on more pain, because the pain of the rehabilitation of the heart is difficult. And think about what I think this as a moral virtue like justice and patience and kindness is the most difficult of the moral virtues. It’s not hard to love an infant, okay, because the infant was so cute. It’s not hard to be kind to someone who’s homeless, whose back is against the wall and has a tin cup, because your heart goes out to that person. This is so hard, because you have a broken heart. And you are reaching out with that broken heart in goodness to the one who broke that. That’s why I think forgiveness is the most heroic moral virtue on the planet. But it also is probably one of the most rewarding. Tragically, most people don’t see that.

Michael –
So I mean, there’s a lot of evidence for it, right? It’s, it’s not, it’s clear to me, you know, I’m, I’m still scared, honestly, if I’m being if I’m being honest to do it, but I see the reasoning. So, again, let’s say I commit today, what am I doing? How am I forgiving?

Robert –

Okay? What you’re going to do is probably follow one of our guidelines, in forgiving, I have three self help books too, by the American Psychological Association, one by a very well regarded New York publisher Norton. And the first one is called forgiveness is a choice. And we I deliberately said that so people don’t feel cajoled into it or pressured into it. And they go through these four phases that have actually 20 steps within the whole thing, okay? forgive a person or a group. And it’s step by step with journaling. The second one is called the forgiving life. It’s actually a Socratic dialogue between two women, one who has a lot of experience with forgiveness, and the other who’s having some marital difficulties, that is just learning. And then the third one is called eight keys to forgiveness by Norton. And I didn’t know the right keys to forgiveness, they have a series called eight keys, they say, Do you want to do this? I called them up and said, Well, they’re more than eight keys to forgiveness. Do you really want me to do this? They said, Do the best you can. So I put in a key is one of them include self forgiveness, because in a marital breakup, if you say, you know, I see where I could have done better here, here and here. Self forgiveness welcomes yourself back into the human community. But there’s definitely one of the eight and the other seven, cover these 20 points from forgiveness as a choice, but not in a stepwise sequence.

Michael –
I want to thank you for doing this. A friend of mine sent me an article. My best friend in the whole wide world, Mr. Christopher long, who’s been a podcast guest because he has gone through divorce and he was my lifeline. And he sent an article. I don’t know if you wrote it, or if you were interviewed or what but, and I remember getting it and thinking no effing way, man. Nope, I am not there. I’m never gonna be there. And I’m more open to it than I had been. So this I think, though that to me numbers and data and and analyzation of things is is is important and significant to me personally. So when I when I when I hear these things, it’s like okay, there’s, there’s something to this. So I at least, I want to I want to heal I want to be a healthy, happy man, Father, hopefully future partner to somebody else. And if It takes more pain and and getting to forgiveness to get there than then that’s, that’s where I’ll go.

Robert –

Yeah, well think about it in terms of rehabilitation of the heart. It’s the same thing if you fall down and damage your knee, okay, now you have a wound which is the damaged knee, you are going to have to go through some pain if there’s surgery, and then physical rehabilitation, would you not want to do that because it’s painful? Well, that pain is temporary. The pain with a knee, if you don’t really have it could last the rest of your life. It’s the same thing with forgiveness, you now have a damaged heart in a psychological sense. You have to go through the tough work of rehabilitation of the heart. But that has a certain timeline to it. And forgiveness is what the American Psychological Association calls it empirically verified treatment, the science shows it works. Why not go through the rehabilitation of the heart? And be free of that? Yeah, no, it’s it’s an excellent point. And I can’t argue it on anymore. As much as I want to, you know, but if you get it if you said no, Michael, I’d forgive you. But that’s okay. No. Choice. You don’t have to go there. You don’t have to go there to have inherent worth.

Michael –

True. Well, that I agree with that. But I do think, again, I think my mission is to is to heal. And I can’t do that. Fully, I think, unless I forgive, but that seems pretty apparent to me.

Robert –
I think it would be a wise choice, but it’s not for everybody. And I know that. Yeah.

Michael –
Again, I want to thank you so very much for doing this. I really, really, really appreciate it. The last question that I asked everybody is what words of wisdom would you impart to a man who has just started his divorce process? Whether he just got papers? Or she just laughed or asked him to leave? Whatever the scenario? What What would you say to that man,

Robert –

I would say, I’m sorry, that has happened to you and you’re going to need time to heal. Forgiveness is not the first step in this, you first have to get rid of the hurricane that hit you, and get used to that and settle down. Anger in the beginning is good. Because anger in the beginning says I am a person of worth and I shouldn’t be treated that way. And your anger shows you that you know you are a person of worth. And you know, the other person needs to have behaved better. Okay, so early anger is good. And allow that anger to settle down. And don’t forgive right away unless you’re a very unusual person, and you want to jump into it. But the even the decision to forgive takes time. But know that early anger is not a bad thing. And don’t run from that. What we want to deal with is the anger that now takes up residence in the human heart. And it’s so disrespectful doesn’t know how to leave even when you asked to leave. That’s when you say you know, I’ve been living with this now for months or years. Enough is enough. As I said earlier, twice. I think it was let me say it again. I don’t want this personnel to win twice. To give this to me for the rest of my life. Now I’m ready for forgiveness. So when you just get served those papers, forgiveness is not appropriate for most of us. Give it time. Early anger is good, because you see you’re a person of worth. And only then if you’re ready to hit the forgiveness gym, there are resources. I’m with you, I stand with you.

Michael –

Awesome. Thank you sir. What’s the best way for people to find you and find your books and all of that?

Robert –
The books would be amazon.com for international forgiveness Institute, it would be international forgiveness.com and then my email address I can give you my personal one, Robert and right. Okay, that’s e n ri ght numeral one. So Robert Enright, one@gmail.com. What I do is help you the human heart. So wouldn’t be an inconvenience. If you’d like to contact me. Great. If you want one of the books. I hope they would be helpful to you. I did my best with them.

Michael –

Awesome with that. Thank you, Robert. I really, really appreciate that. You know, just just out of curiosity, so do you do one on one? Like, like coaching counseling for people?

Robert-

Yes, but I don’t do that as often as I do research. Because being a professor, they totally expect me to write in search. And it’s kind of like the publisher perish deal.  I do but I’m much more of a researcher and writer at this point.

Michael –

Gotcha. Well, if you need a guinea pig, I’ll be happy to

Robert –
know that a guinea pig back off full fledged person with work.

Michael –

I love it. Well, thank you. I really appreciate this. I hope we could do it again sometime and and again, I can’t I can’t thank you enough.

Robert –

Thank you so much. It’s been my honor. Thank you. Take care now. Yep. Take care. Bye.

 

 

Episode 65 – Forgiveness with Dr. Robert Enright

https://www.risingphoenixpodcast.com

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