Episode 97 - Transcript - The Discourse Episodes- Episode 2 Review

By Michael Rhodes | February 28, 2023

This is a transcription of Episode 97.  The transcription was done by software, apologies for anything that seems out of whack. A link to the episode is below.

Michael 0:00

Chris 0:21
and welcome

Michael 0:25
to the show. This is going to be review of it. So too. Yeah,

Chris 0:31
this is gonna be a double take.

Michael 0:33
So this is the second time. First time. Okay, so what happened was

Chris 0:39
what happened? You know, you’re always on that side. I’m always on the side. I wonder why? I don’t know. But we’ll switch it up someday.

Michael 0:51
So we recorded this, and I was holding the microphone, but I’m sometimes labor ly challenged. So I didn’t really want to hold it, and let it rest on my on my chest, or where to fuck over and cut the sound out. So you can hear him perfectly fine.

Chris 1:14
Yeah. And even now, as you can tell, I don’t have a microphone in my face, trying something different myself. Hopefully, our sound checks seem to check out so

Michael 1:26
we’ll see how this goes. So, so two is of course with the wonderful Joshua Jones, otherwise known as Jonesy. And, of course, what stands out in the first part of that interview, is the fact that Josh made the decision to end his marriage.

Josh 1:48
Right? This would have been 2015. I went away for training for for three weeks, actually. And I came back and me and my daughter were spending the day together and my new like, she’s not even four years old, yet this December, she was going to turn four in April. I remember coming home from somewhere. And we were grabbing lunch and I’m gonna go to the park and my ex wife started talking about wanting to go as well. And my little daughter says, No, mommy, I don’t want you to go because you and daddy just fight all the time. So it dagger in the heart, though. Yeah, it broke everything inside me. And that was kind of the point where it was just like, I’m done. I can’t do this anymore.

Michael 2:26
And that’s a can be a difficult subject. Right? Especially, you know, most of the men, certainly myself, you most of the men, I think that really seek out the podcast and everything that I’m doing, or guys that were that was not their scenario. There’s some well,

Chris 2:49
but not a lot. The concept I’ve always had in my mind, and where I’ve always came from when it came to helping guys counseling guys. And that kind of thing I draw on experience. And the way that this whole thing was sort of founded, in my mind was that we’re not necessarily speaking to the lever. We’re speaking to the one who got left yet we’re working on the one who got left. True. So that in itself has been, as I have reviewed this episode myself. I mean, pulling no punches, major hang up for me, Major hang up for me. And it’s not about disrespects Josh Jones at all. I am mature enough to understand there. We all answer for our own actions. And he did what he did, because he felt he had to do so.

Michael 3:53
It’s tough man. I thought about this a lot. You know, certainly before we recorded the first take, and, you know, this the time from since we recorded the till now, right in that time period, whatever we can have for whatever it’s been. And you know, I think, for me, he was the first person that I didn’t know. So that that was something you asked like, do you know ahead of time, I didn’t know ahead of time. And then, you know, would you have felt differently, not only about him, but maybe about the Alpha code and the things that I experienced with him? Would I have even gone down that road? If I would have known that Josh did what he did, and I don’t know. I will say that. He changed my mind a little bit. or I shouldn’t say change my mind to change my view a little, I guess, changed my view a little bit in terms of understanding people that do

Chris 5:02
do the leaving. How so?

Michael 5:05
Well, because I respected the show so much. And I thought, well, there’s there’s got to be, I can’t, I couldn’t. And I didn’t, I wouldn’t say I tried, but I couldn’t reconcile bad with him with badness, if that makes any kind of sense because he was such a positive force in my life. And so like I, I sort of took him at his word that he felt like, that’s what he had to do. And I think when you put all that together in a package, and you look at his childhood, when he was sort of going, going over his story about his childhood,

Josh 5:42
it all begins with like, growing up in a in a single parent home, my mom was white, my dad was black. And so like, as a kid, my mom used to hit me a little bit, but I outgrew her real quick, and she just couldn’t really hurt me, you know, size wise. And so she kind of switched up to she get really irritated and use a lot of verbal abuse, like, stupid nigger, and I’m never gonna be anything and just like, all kinds of like, that all the stuff you want to tell your kid that was like the opposite of that.

Michael 6:11
And then the impact that the marriage relationship, whatever was having on his children, I think it I sort of understood it in some kind of way. Do I think that it could have been worked out? I think all relationships can be if if, if both parties want. And maybe there is a scenario in which actually bought a book before she or she left? It was on fixing your marriage if only one person wants to, and this this wasn’t, I don’t even know if that was the title or whatever. But it wasn’t, I felt like we were we were having issues. And I don’t know, it just seemed like I wanted to take the bull by the horns. So it didn’t work. But I’m not sure that I you know, I’m not saying that I applied all the principles correctly, or whatever. I don’t know if I read the whole book, but in general, which is something we try to avoid doing, but we all do it in general. Yeah, it is. I think it takes too and if only one party wants to participate in the improvement or the fixing whatever call it Oh, the marriage then then it’s doomed. Unfortunately.

Chris 7:25
I wouldn’t agree to I would agree to a to a point of that a large portion really, I have a real hard time especially all these years later watching what watching the effect that my wife leaving had on my daughters watching the effects that other guys wives leaving having on their children. So where my strong bias in this comes from really as I analyze myself more and more is the effect and just the pouring in of negative trauma on on his children. I agree. But so yeah, there’s an argument to be said, all but all but we were fighting and arguing and it was better off the kids are better off horseshit Well, kids are better off if the parents know. And sometimes it’s understandable and I understand that the kids are better off than the parents say, oh my god, we created this life we’re responsible for this life we no matter what our differences are, we need to do things like it and Josh outlines that a little bit. You know, and I might give him kudos for trying this for sure. You know, speaking to his life lesson, we got differences we got issues, we got problems, you know, let’s not do this in front of the children

Josh 8:57
on multiple occasions. I begged her like look, we’re gonna get in arguments let’s not fight in front of the kids. That’s all I’m asking for and it just kept happening and kept happening.

Chris 9:06
And that was a great effort. You know, I would applaud that effort and to your point of it takes to you know, she needed to reciprocate that and didn’t now doesn’t sound we can’t it doesn’t sound like it right we’re going off of what he said you can’t make somebody do something they don’t want to do true. You need you know at a point in time like that your love for your children need to take over the best you can I don’t know I don’t know what to counsel someone in that situation where their wife is belligerent to them all the time. I don’t exactly know but what what I do know is that I these are I statements here I can choose whether or not you okay, like so you come at me with some Near pissed off, and you’re upset. And I, I choose my behavior, I choose whether or not I’m going to retaliate verbally, to you I choose whether or not I’m going to come back and swing. You know, I make the choice. I, my wife starts coming at me pitch and whatever, in that situation in front of my daughters. At that point, you know, at that I haven’t I have a decision to make. I can choose whether or not I’m going to engage in that argument or not. Now,

Michael 10:34
I would say true. If all that being said, it’s that’s not easy. No, no, if you have the right tools, because some some people use it. That’s where I was going, you know, I want I’m gonna smack that bitch interface. Like we, you know, that happens. Right? I mean, I don’t, I’m not saying I have no choice. But I’m saying, I don’t know that he had openings. It’s

Chris 10:53
very, very conceivable that Josh had no idea at that time. And I think if you if whether he had a conviction or not, he didn’t have you didn’t

Michael 11:00
know this was and I think it’d be traced. Again, if you look at it holistically, and you look at the childhood, and sounds like his was a little bit rough. I mean, he was literally called the N word by his own mother, which I think it’s it’s just a snapshot of microcosm. So I think there could have been a good I don’t want to I don’t speak for him, but I’m just guessing that perhaps and I guess, maybe, maybe it feels like I’m trying to let him off the hook. And it’s not the case that maybe it is, I think it’s just the fact that I love the man. And so um, maybe maybe I’m maybe I’m a bit defensive. I don’t think so though, I think, you know, he could defend himself. But I think I’m more just trying to understand it. And because, again, we talk about narrative and stories. And my story, Josh Jones is a great guy. So him just up and leaving doesn’t make sense to me. So I try to understand it in a way that makes sense to me.

Chris 11:44
Okay. You know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. So So let’s, let’s, let’s think outside the box for just a second here, and do a 30,000 foot view, someone who met your ex wife, after she ripped your family apart, and I’m not going to sugarcoat she ripped her family apart, she started mine. Someone who met her afterwards and sees a side of her maybe even changed for the better, maybe not changed. Maybe it was always that part of who she was, and gets to know her and thinks she hung the moon. Sure. And then the same sort of similar situation then later learns and finds out that she loved her husband. Yeah, what? What is that? What does that person to think?

Michael 12:36
Well, I would say that person should ask before they got to plug and play, but to your point, I don’t know. I mean, because maybe

Chris 12:43
your ex wife helped this lady your personal things and showing this this person now sees your ex wife as a role model? Sure. I’m just trying to play the devil’s advocate, no, two foot kind of thing. Me too. Whereas in I, I have split this thing, six ways from Sunday in my mind. And I, I’m, I’m, I’m not going to apologize. I wanted to say I’m really sorry, but I’m not going to apologize for the fact that I find. I can’t find an excuse. When there’s children involved. Yeah. Especially I can really only speak to that, because that’s where I’ve been. I just can’t find an excuse to where I’m like, Yeah, well, let me but that’s okay.

Michael 13:34
Let me throw something at him, I believe. Absolutely. So in in, I’ve been thinking a lot about this. And it’s not about trying to portray Josh or anybody in that does that that makes a decision in a positive way. But I think that to not recognize that there is good that comes from it, I think is short sighted. And I think if you look at who your ex was, and then you think about her having 100% access to those children. Would they be as mentally healthy as they are now considering where they wound up? Who became their mother in the way?

Chris 14:22
Like, do you think that I’m gonna be able to clarify?

Michael 14:27
Well, yes, yes. There’s no question that your ex has startups that grow the dark side, no question. The dark side has some negative traits, but as we all do, but there’s some that are particularly bad, I would say, right.

Chris 14:48
So are you speaking in a timeframe after she left?

Michael 14:51
Well, I’m saying like, let’s look at what would happen if she would have stayed.

Chris 14:55
Okay. Okay. Yeah, good. Well, I’m ready for this

Michael 14:59
and And and been able to influence them in an even greater way than then the what became 20 20% of the time or whatever it

Unknown Speaker 15:10
was roughly.

Michael 15:11
I mean that that doesn’t mean that she didn’t have other reach. But but let’s just say, you know, you if you if you say let’s, let’s keep the family together, I’m not again, not saying you’re wrong in this front, but yeah, I’m trying to find a positive and say, maybe, just maybe your children actually wound up better. Because they had her in in their life a lot less.

Chris 15:34
Okay, so we’ve had that part of that discussion before. In light of the fact that she ended up only being around those girls, around 20% of the time. stands to reason mathematically, there was only about that 20% influence on

Michael 15:51
her. Yeah, no, I mean, who knew? Who really knows? Right, good.

Chris 15:55
So we’re talking, we’re talking a pie in the sky. way of thinking here, but had she not left? Well. Evidently, there were several screws that fell loose in her brain that caused her to leave true. Had those screws not fallen loose? Yeah, but I think person she was for 10 years. She was a pretty damn good mother. I must admit, I cannot, cannot deny that the person she was for 10 years, she was pretty good. Upon making that decision, it’s as if the hitch pin got pulled through. And she went off the rails and many, many facets.

Michael 16:35
And we’ve, we’ve met, and we’re definitely rabbit holing here, but that’s fine with me. We’ve definitely had discussions where like, was that the person or the person? That was the mask lifted? Or whatever? Like, did I discover who she was? Or was that always who she was when she? And it’s a great question? I know, in some of these things, a lot of these things you just don’t know. Right? You’re never gonna know what would have happened. If she would have stayed? You can’t tell. Right? You can’t tell all you know, is what what did happen? Yeah, but so do you? I mean, it’s I think it is it’s question everyone asked, like, do you think she would have? Well, let me let me ask, first is, was who she was the person that was for the first 10 years? Or did she just really talk and hide it well, or did the stress of having toddlers or whatever, or, you know, you traveling or whatever did that? Cause some type of, you know,

Chris 17:28
Stan, Grant questions, all great questions that I’ll never have an answer to True. True. They’re wonderful Points to Ponder, to help. Do the work to tell the story to help, you know, as I did back then, to come to conclusions in my own mind. Whereas in now, at this point, the answers to those questions are gonna change in No, no, they won’t no matter which direction the answer goes. No, you

Michael 18:00
don’t know. I mean, there’s no way of knowing, you know, what, what the outcome would have been either way, it’s just impossible to tell. But so then I think if if, if that’s the case, and it’s Didn’t you have to look at the reality. And the reality is that, you know, of course, faced challenges, and had been affected by deeply. Right. But is it possible? I guess this isn’t a fair question. But is it possible that they turned out better?

Chris 18:32
Because of what occurred? Yeah, I don’t have an answer to that.

Michael 18:36
It’s tough. Because you don’t know. Yeah, you don’t know what the the you know, the answer.

Chris 18:40
I mean, the answer lies in the, you know, Marvel endgame, as the timelines

Michael 18:48
severed exactly what I was exactly what I was thinking,

Chris 18:53
as the timelines diverged, right, that that reality ceased to exist. Because

Michael 19:02
and again, like, I’m not, I’m not defending anyone, I’m certainly not defending the dark side, or anyone that makes this decision. I just think it’s, it is healthy to at least ponder the positive outcomes, because I think if you don’t do that, then especially guys in the beginning don’t have any hope. And then they don’t have anything that well it can get better or whatever. I’m saying

Chris 19:26
I know, I know. So what I can say definitively because I’ve lived in the offshoot timeline since that day. What I can say definitively is that by some of you guys have heard me talk about these things before by loving all my children the way I love though my children and continue to do so. Being present and and just pouring into their lives. And giving, giving my all that I can as a father mm. do that make mistakes? Absolutely. Every human being, but loving on them and pouring into their lives every day, do you think I may have even over compensated because of the fact that I was on? And that’s an alternate timeline of what what I thought reality was going to be.

Michael 20:17
And that’s that leads me to enter these little like, what else? And oh, yeah, not fair questions, but let’s just say, let’s just let’s just ponder this for a minute. Do you think that this situation made you a better father?

Chris 20:30
No, no, no. No, I don’t, I think I do truly believe that no matter what I had I had we remained on the original timeline or not, I would have continued to, I knew that Brett, maybe I’m a little bit different than some people. This is not a toot my own horn thing. It’s how I was raised. It’s how I was taught about the role model I had as a father. I knew the moment I held my daughters in my arm, that moment they were born. If I was put here for nothing else, I even said it before I was divorced. I’ve said this out loud, many, many, many times. If I was put here on this earth, for nothing else, it was other than to be a father to my children. And I can I can sit here in competence and say, I would have been the same, I would have been the same. Now, back to, you know, did I overcompensate? More than likely I did more than likely I went overboard knowing that what the influence that was coming from that side was no longer going to be what was set up and promised on that original timeline. For them, I like and I’ve said this before, to people to you, I liken it as a card game, you know, the hand that my children were dealt? Well, the original hand they were dealt, was pretty daggone good hand, you know, you’re talking probably a winning a winning hand for sure. But you know, now that all my alternative timeline, the one I’m living in now, right off the bat, you know, those aces were taken from them and replaced them with deuces, if they’re lucky. And recognizing that immediately I’ve, I’ve shared it with you, I’ve talked to other people about this kind of thing, you know, I, I mourn the death of my marriage for a long time, year, whatever, it took me to mourn that, to which to sit in it, which is what we’re going to talk about next time, sitting in the pain and understanding what that means. And but but once, you know, once the tears dried up for that, mostly, then I began to really mourn at the loss of that, that future that was in that in that original timeline. And that more than likely gave me even more resolve to go overboard. And with love and all my girls, and I’m not talking about overboard with money, right ally money. But you know, that that, that every day, moments moment, involvement, understanding and knowing what’s going on with them in school, on a daily basis, being stepping up to the plate, knowing that it needed to be done with the communications of the school where the

Michael 23:45
teachers are really, you know, you don’t think any of that stuff would have been taken over by her in the ultimate time or the original timeline.

Chris 23:54
She would have been right there with me in the life that we had built for 10 years. In that original timeline. She would have been right there with me. I may have been leading the way a little bit here and there. But the woman she was during those 10 years, she was that kind of woman, that mom, that would have been that involved. But then after that, it definitely changed. Yeah, of course. Definitely. Everything changed.

Michael 24:23
All right. Well, listen, you know, it’s it’s a it’s a topic that I think is worth discussing. And I think it’s one that sometimes people will will ask and and contemplate you know, is this a terrible thing? Yes. Is that as many have said, does it mean your life is over? No, it doesn’t doesn’t mean that. No, doesn’t mean that but there are consequences? For sure. I would say that if, if you can work it out, work it out. But that’s also a tricky thing because you don’t want to, as you have said many times and panic and appeasement phase right, we don’t want to live in that. No, it’s not healthy for you. Absolutely not. That’ll

Chris 25:11
lead to bigger problems in your life. Right?

Michael 25:14
You know, you can’t you can’t make someone love you. You can’t make someone come back. You can try to do things and hope that they reciprocate. But if it don’t, you’re you’re wasting your time. It’s it’s all it’s all. None of this. I mean, if this shit was easy, and erasing, it’s just we wouldn’t be here. Right? Yeah, this

Chris 25:30
is just a couple of people discussing it. Our opinions are obviously my my opinion is obviously injected into this conversation. Sure. Why real? I simply just have that real hard time with having some kind of sympathy for a lever, one that would?

Michael 25:50
Well, I don’t think I have said it’s not sympathy. I think it’s it’s being okay with it. Because there was positive that come from it. It’s not I don’t I don’t, I don’t feel sorry for Josh, for what you’re saying what he did? And I don’t I think if you asked him, I mean, we we don’t talk a lot anymore. But we do talk we do text message judgment. No, no, no, it’s not. It’s not it’s not him. But I can say that he he has still that moment. So the last time that we talked talk, it’s probably six months ago. We’ve texted a couple times since then, but and he was talking because he got remarried. And he was talking about the stress of that. And and I don’t know, what why this came up. But he was like, you know, sometimes I miss my family. I think because of the stresses of having to juggle, you know, and, um, family, I

Chris 26:40
can only imagine that would be very natural.

Michael 26:43
Yeah, I mean, how could you not? I don’t really think that that original timeline. Well, and I think even if circumstance even you view I mean, I’m me. I think we all do that, because this is not what we planned on at all. And I don’t I don’t I mean, he certainly didn’t. No one No one as a sales, no one gets married, get divorced, like no one does that. No one’s like, oh, I can’t wait for this shit. And like, it’s not. It’s not what people do?

Chris 27:07
I don’t think so. But I do believe that there are many, many men and women that get married and don’t really understand or take seriously the gravity of the bow. Oh, yeah, sure. I’m not all the time. And that’s one thing. And then my biggest problem is the trauma that it inflicts on the children. And I have I have read no data, anywhere. That supports the fact that children are just gonna be okay.

Michael 27:45
They’re resilient. I usually like to say that I’d like to punch those people in the face and say that shit. But you know, if they do, they can come out of it. Okay, is it better if a healthy family unit stays together? Yeah, no fucking question

Chris 27:58
of question. I can’t, you know, please don’t get me wrong here. Like, you got. You got you got a physically abusive situation? We Oh, yeah, of course. Get yourself and your children away from Yeah, of course, you’ve got maybe, maybe your wife is a hard word for the husband, or the wife or the husband has a real live because it is real. Some people don’t think it is but there are mental illness is a real real thing. And that being said, it’s an illness, and most of them have treatment plans and cures and things like that for it.

Michael 28:41
So potential rabbit hole things like rabbit hole. So the dark side, it pretty sure has borderline personality, or at least some significant traits, right, significant traits. So I would love to know if maybe you had this conversation with a therapist, but I would love to pick someone’s brain. Like, if if that’s the case, did it stay? Did it manifest at that point? Did it was it hidden for so long? Was it just not in a in a way that was detrimental to the family? Or like what what made it

Chris 29:16
you alerted later on earlier to? We’re talking a little bit about Josh not even have the tools? Yeah. I personally had no tools to no tools to understand that level and deal with some of those characteristics of that disorder. I’m not a doctor, I’m not diagnosing her at all. She’s simply met a lot of the criteria. Sure. So later on, just just as an as a good segue here, just as in the latter half or two thirds of Episode Number Two’s podcast Josh has gained many, many really valuable tools. This kind of thing. Yeah.

Michael 30:07
I was listening on on the way here again, while I listened to more of it than I listened to the first time. And yeah, I mean, I, I lived it, I seen it in terms of who he was as a as a man, his leadership time and time again. It’s a big help to me. That’s why it was hard for me to paint him in a negative light based on his actions, because I was like, what this is Josh, this is so I mean, this is a man, I would venture

Chris 30:36
to say, though, at the time he left his family. He’s not the same man. No,

Michael 30:42
definitely not. No. I mean, you can that’s clear from the story. You know, I mean, he talked about leave all he was doing was drinking and talking. And so that’s not the Josh I know. I mean, we I did get the honor of an honored private strong for but we spent, we did hang out once we had we had a couple beers at dinner. I was fortunate to spend time with them. And we did drink, but he wasn’t a drunk, or I mean, he was he was the guy that I knew or know. And so that reconciling that with a lever, and I think perhaps if I would have had more time to contemplate, I certainly probably would have asked about it more. I think I didn’t know until that moment, I think, honestly. And so I didn’t even and not just him, although partially him but someone else that we’ll talk about in a future as why implemented pre interviews, because if I would have known that, I think I would have approached it a little differently, perhaps, at least would ask more questions and try to understood it. But I still in my story, Josh Jones was, was, you know, I don’t know if the hero was the right word. But he was he was he was a very important person in my life at that time, for sure. And so for me to know, you know, I want to tell this story, because it’s really important story.

Chris 32:01
I mean, it’s a great story. And it’s a very important story to tell. I thought I thought it was, personally I thought it was an excellent choice of a guest for the second podcast because it it Josh does a great job talking about many of the points, then you went ahead and interviewed and did solos on you know, singularities of those points that he made through there. Well, let’s open this up. Let’s unpack this.

Michael 32:33
Yeah, I mean, he made a cover like we’ve covered a lot.

Chris 32:36
Last Oh says, I don’t know if that’s a joke, but had loved unpack that.

Michael 32:41
Marcia thief, by the way, March of last, yeah. Yeah. I mean, there was so much in that, and, and so much to be mined from it. And excellent content

Chris 32:52
that he talked about, which we you know, which got which piqued my interest even more about the Alpha code? Because, clearly, Josh Jones has done a massive amount of work on himself. And it shows Yeah, it really, you know, it really shows I’m glad he included the way back stuff from his childhood. I’m glad he included his met his marriage failing, and, and how it went down. Obviously, guys, I have a problem with anyone who chooses to be the lever. I have, it’s just a very, very difficult thing for me to reconcile. I can’t come to grips with. That’s better than fighting. I can’t. So

Michael 33:41
I don’t know. I’d be curious if there’s, I don’t know how you would track that or whatever. But like, there is data around like, the effects of arguing and fighting versus divorce. Right. And to which degree you know, beating and all that kind of shit or just like I can hate you, I fucking hate you. Like, you know what I mean? Like, and they’re

Chris 33:58
again, shame on a couple that would do that in front of their children. Shame on someone for not a light bulb not going off in their mind and saying she is acting like super awful mega bitch right now to me, and hitting my buttons and triggering me and I want to lash back out in this argumentative way and have a screaming match. But but which is the easy way out? Sure. We know it’s easy way out the hard way is to be a man of character and say, my baby girls right here. What kind of example Do I want to set? Not all of us have those tools?

Michael 34:43

Chris 34:44
you know, when we get married when we’re young man and young women. And you know, we don’t understand and realize all those things. Some do share some out there. Sure.

Michael 34:53
I mean, there’s I mean, there’s if I if I lived the perfect life, I wouldn’t be who I am like I should be in better shape. I shouldn’t drink whiskey that go. But it’s I think there’s always better there’s always, you know, you know, more righteous, that’s the right word way to live and to be in. And I think it’s unfortunate that sometimes it takes shit like this or divorce to spur the goal of being better where that means, you know, I think that the Josh have old in the Josh now aren’t the same person by any stretch and it sucks that you know that you you have to go through something like that to get this to a good place and it sucks that you know, of course the children get caught in the crossfire but you know, it’s it’s one of those things where it would be nice if society approached mental health differently. Yeah, you know, and even you know, again, this isn’t to brag on the church, but he said I’ve you know, kind of had a jacked up church and they were basically like, it’s your fault, like, so it sounded like he tried to reach out to get help.

Josh 36:10
Long story short is any problems that we had, like the female kind of leaders in the church, were telling her? Well, I’m the head of household, so it’s on me and the guys are telling me I’m not doing enough. I’m not doing enough, which sounds exactly like what I believed all my life is it I’m never enough, no matter how hard I try.

Michael 36:27
I’m not blaming that church necessarily, or you know, maybe those singular people or whatever, but would have been nice if those people also have the tools to the mental health is so stigmatized, especially for men, right? Suck it up. Just you’re you know, you lead you’re supposed to, you know, you’re supposed to figure it out, or whatever. They said you didn’t go into too many details. But you’re supposed to leave your family. Yeah. Yeah. Know what that means. Exactly. So she started yelling at me, like, what does that mean? Like? No, it would be nice to someone would have been able to give him some some tools that are

Chris 37:00
many, many ways. Sure. To be a leader. And yeah, to just give a blanket statement out there. I’m not. And that’s what he kind of gave us in that. Yeah. What they told him, you know, and that’s, you’re right, I would agree that feels very unfair. And, and trigger Josh back into those thoughts of it. Which is a shame. And

Michael 37:28
it’s almost it’s almost a it’s a disappointment. And again, I don’t know the church. I don’t know the people but I feel like there should be like a should be mandated, like churches should have. approach but like, there should be like a save your marriage 101 or some shit like that should be. Because when you talk about just relationships in general, it’s just hard. You know, it’s and we don’t have the tools. A lot of us were not taught the tools. I guess that’s kind of what I was saying is like, you know, whether it be churches, not that they should bear all the burden, but schools mean wise mental health, not part of the curriculum. Why? Why is like, dealing with depression and anxiety not taught in schools. I got a daughter, you got daughters? I I know my oldest has anxiety over a lot of stuff. And why is there not a class in high school or wherever Middle School? Kindergarten, we get the shit, actually, every year from the beginning until the end? Why is there not something that that provides tools to kids, and thus, and therefore, they don’t get in marriages that they can’t, that they shouldn’t be in perhaps in the first place? And certainly when things get rocky, they they know how to handle it?

Chris 38:50
Yeah, yeah. The tools aren’t given i That’s an age old argument. Should the parents be parenting the children or should the school be parenting the children?

Michael 39:06
Well, I think I mean, I think both Yeah, in my view.

Chris 39:10
I yeah, that’s, that’s gonna depend on Yeah. Individuals views. I lean a little bit more towards apparent,

Michael 39:22
right. I think but I think it works for me. It’s still Yeah, but it’s still a skill. Like, I’m not going to teach my kid algebra because I don’t fucking know it. You know, I’m saying, and I’m probably don’t have the best. And I try. I probably don’t do as good as I should. But I just think the more help around mental health, the better. And there should be a psychiatrist or psychologist and psychiatrist like to push pills on people. Yeah, don’t sue me. If you’re a psychiatrist. I don’t know. I’m just saying, you know, there should be a psychologist on staff that teaches a fucking mental health class in at least strategic years or something. thing

Chris 40:00
but yeah, I don’t I wonder how the curriculum has changed since this old guy went up? Well, I

Michael 40:06
can tell you, at least I didn’t see anything’s. Yeah, I’m not sure about. I know when my oldest recently had high school orientation, because she’s gonna mean high school next year it happens like, Oh my goodness. And there are a ton of choices for classes that way more than we ever had.

Chris 40:30
And now there’s like, journeys. Yeah, they can go into a field of study through almost like college,

Michael 40:36
there was a guitar class, I’m like, Are you fucking kidding me? I would have killed for that as I’m going to actually went to school. My senior year, I miss 54 days, we are like, you need you need to start coming. And we’re going to failure. Um, I got good grades. And I had CS because I good enough. I thought they were good enough. I mean, I had no bucks to give about I had no college would have fucking but anyway. But there I don’t remember seeing anything about a tract four. And then that’s fine, too. And in terms of mental health, but at least it should have there should be a mental health class. I don’t I don’t know why there isn’t.

Chris 41:19
These are great. Questions and comments for your local legislators.

Michael 41:25
Yeah, sure. That I was just thinking that I should do. I actually think it’s the other day she’d be attending school board meetings and shit, because I seen a post and someone was like, It’s fucking crazy people that show up constantly screaming about queue and on and litter boxes and litter boxes. There’s schools, and they’re like, someone was like, you know, it’s not the it’s not the normal folks. Because we all really, you know, we got busy and we’re, you know, we’ve got shit going on. And we’re not like obsessed with weird shit. But yeah, I should probably get more more involved. But But anyway, rabbit holes. So I mean, well, let’s go back to I guess a little bit. Not that I want to focus necessarily on the Alpha code. But we’re going to

Chris 42:09
talk about because I think it’s a good idea to talk a little bit about what you acknowledge the wisdom that the Alpha code has imparted on the guys that are going through it, because, you know, earlier, we were talking a little bit about on the phone about my take, because I haven’t been exposed to it the Alpha code at all, except for what I’ve watched, come out of Mike through it, and it’s impressive. It’s my, my layman’s terms way of putting it is it causes men to rally around each other and instills and builds and rebuild self confidence. And those things are imperative. I own a character,

Michael 43:00
I always find it hard to describe it because I’m like, I don’t it’s I don’t know how to I used to tell Justin this all the time. And he would give me these sort of salesy things to say, but they never felt right. You know, he’d say, we build men of high character and blah, blah, blah. And I’m like, Yeah, but no, like, yes, but no, it’s, it’s so many things. And it sounds like I’m talking about cold. It? I did does, it does, it does a lot of things. It certainly gives you tools that it gave me tools that I never had, just just with, like Josh said, it’s about processing emotions. And he said, I love it. He said, It’s not about controlling emotions, because you can’t control your emotions, you can’t control your body. Like if, again, how he described it, and I’ll just be a point I’ll drop it in, I might try to do some other drops too. But he talked about, you know, if someone scares you, you’re, your body’s going to react in a certain way, you can’t control that it’s going to do what’s going to do so you’re gonna get pissed, you’re gonna get pissed. You can’t really stop it, but you can regulate, I think it’s the word

Josh 43:58
number one, like hands down is like emotional management being able to, and I want to be very specific about not control my emotions, because you can’t control something that’s going to happen. Like, I tell people this all the time, like when somebody scares the crap crap out of you, your body responds, you can manage what you do with that, but you can’t control you can’t stop what your body already does, as a result of that, you know, so I don’t like to use control but the management of it.

Chris 44:27
Yeah. And you can see to it that your reaction forms in a certain way. Yes, you’re gonna have a reaction to it, but you can control how you work it.

Michael 44:40
Yep. After that. Yeah, I think it’s for me, I was thinking it’s managing. It’s managing your emotions. You can’t you can’t stop them. They’re going to come. It’s managing them and getting to the root cause. But what what Justin teaches a lot is about one of the main stage is dropping into your body and listening to your body and that was forehand? What does that mean? And I’ll be honest, I wish that that that was sort of a, it wasn’t a I learned more about that from Erika from Episode 41. Her and I worked together for like four months, I learned more at Cymatics. You know how the mind affects the body essentially, I learned more about that under her, but the foundation was laid in the health code in, it wasn’t like, control your emotions, stop being a bitch don’t have emotions, it was like embrace your emotions, feel them in your body, so you can actually feel them, and heal from them and clear them. And that was just a completely different approach. I’ve never even contemplated and then once you do that, once you feel that, and he talks a lot about, you know, doing purges. So if you’re, if you’re really upset I would do and he still does it. And I’m still able to go though timewise I can’t right now until daylight savings times, but he does meetings once a week. And if you’re in the program, you have to go out to make compulsory. You have to be there. And he’ll touch on this a lot. But I’ve seen him tell guys, go away. 30 seconds, go cry, I can see you need it. Go cry for 30 seconds. Scream cry, what are we gonna do? Come on back. Do it right now. And in, they will come back. And it would be I want to say better, like they’re healed, but they will be like, relieved and given permission to go cry from a man. You know, it’s just it’s as powerful it was. And I seen it many times. And that was it was it was the permission to be for me, it was permission to be myself. Because I am an emotional guy. Just like Josie said, I’m an emotional dude. And so it was okay to be emotional. The best videos I did in the opcode and I’ll talk about the live videos was when I cried. And because it was relieving and then all the flack and comments that were so supportive and not like Man, what a bitch you are get over it. None of that nonsense. None of that bullshit that childish. I can’t have emotions, you can either bullshit that I participated in that, you know, I can remember my ex being start getting upset or something at work, and I’m gonna get mad, like, I don’t want to fucking hear that or whatever. I don’t you know, I don’t remember the exact I remember one time fairly clearly. When she was whining, what I would call whining, and I was like, Ben, just fucking leave then. You know, and what a shitty thing to Yeah, like looking back like, and so it taught me to be okay with emotions to embrace them. So that was that was one of the bigger things as Josh said, was was that lesson that was that acceptance. And you don’t you don’t get that everywhere. Hopefully you have some good friends that or through this particular podcast, you know, you’ve learned that as well. But for me, that was a giant lesson that I needed. Like I said, especially for me as emotional MAMP six to with a bald head and tattoos. I looked like I should be at Rikers, not fucking crying, right? Or reading poetry or whatever.

Chris 48:13
But since but since you’ve learned what you’ve learned, you understand that that is the right way.

Michael 48:17
Oh 100,000 bazillion percent were the highest fucking Britain the world is stuffing

Chris 48:23
it down the push. Those are? Oh my gosh, that just turns you

Michael 48:27
into a rabid human being it does. It makes you bitter and angry and pissed off. And yeah, and or to shut off and

Chris 48:35
measurable. And I really appreciated those points in there. Like I said, toward the latter half of this episode where Josh highlighted that, that kind of thing. And what it did for him, that’s

Michael 48:48
its power. Awesome. And the other aspect he taught was live videos. And that’s something I’ve it’s part of my program as well. You have to I had a guy reach out not too long ago and say, Well, can you just I don’t I don’t want that do that part of it. And that’s like a central part of it, man. Yeah, I’ll just I’ll do the I’ll do the lessons. That’s that’s the part of the lessons like and here and again, what he said is I said this whole time when you do a live video, you can’t edit that shit. No, yeah, your mass raw and removed. It’s real. And it’s raw, and it’s who you

Josh 49:20
are. And the live videos what that did for me was like, I’m just gonna be who I am right here right now in this moment. And like you said, all the support all the feedback it, it was validating me but in a sense of like the actual me not validating the mask that I’m holding up for you. You know what I mean?

Michael 49:38
And I can watch videos and I’ll pick up these little clues from guys and they’ll say certain things over and over and I’ll be like, he’s being authentic and real. Because he has no other choice. And then here’s the best part because he’s being himself and then he gets support and love and acceptance and whatever from other men. Then he suddenly starts to feel like he’s not a piece of shit. And it’s like it’s It’s hate that you know, like supercharges your self esteem, big time. I’m not a piece of shit no man, like in you know, we talked about shame and all that kind of stuff when you get when you bring it to the light. It’s the same with just just general I think we all carry so much fucking shame. And when we just become ourselves and we kill it and we been lift our self esteem. It’s really it’s again, it’s the other part probably private to bigger parts of the Africa where those two things there’s other lessons as other things. Some of it I carried on teach like anchors he talks about Yeah, anchors, I love that part of

Josh 50:39
getting rid of anchors and I really took that to heart and redid like I didn’t remodel like I guess redecorated my entire house, like the living room, the bedroom everything and just got rid of all the old stuff and made it mine. I picked out stuff that I liked, because I liked it not because it made her happy or her happy. You know, it’s like, this is what I want in here. And people can accept it or not. I embrace that. And I

Chris 51:05
really identified with it to myself and what I went through myself here because I ended up keeping the family home. And that house was just full of angers. Me too. I took great joy in buying new sheets and bedspreads and throwing the old ones out. I remember things like that. Just getting rid of those anchors.

Michael 51:33
And it’s fun. I wonder because I did the same thing and I don’t remember it was probably the Africa but I don’t remember why. What do you reckon? Why you would someone suggest that you just get to a point where like, you know, it’d be cool. I need to get rid of the ship. It was

Chris 51:50
it was a couple of months when I began to heal from the heartbreak being able to sit in that house full of anchors at the beginning help I think helped me set in the pain and feel it sure had I got rid of everything right away. Just had it just got angry and threw stuff out. That would have I don’t think that would have helped me work through what I needed to work through right away and, and I’m not advocating that you leave the anchors in your home or whatever. It’s just that there wasn’t not to your question. No, no one said hey, you might want to redecorate this or you know

Michael 52:45
what a great suggestion it took because I did it. Like what a wonderful experience to be like, get rid of that shit and

Chris 52:55
you know, it was just on the back end of that show. It was really really funny is when I met my current final life in in Safe Space confidence. There were Snickers at my interior decorating style and things like that. It made me laugh too. Yeah, you know, but you know I needed that at the time on my hand yes deer head right here. You know this is where I want this sucker This is what how you know yeah, there’s a shotgun in the corner yeah you know, and these this was these were my things and it was it was my house now and I did it my way I don’t like them curtains you know getting these mouse chick green ones that I’m gonna hate you know? No concept of good color matching those bad but nevertheless it’s still now reflected who I was as I dug it. Yeah, it’s an important step. I think this very room the clubhouse is my wife has not laid a finger on the decorating of this room.

Michael 54:09
Now this was I mean the barn was here obviously. But what when did this spring up? When did you build the UI? This was after the dark side?

Chris 54:20
Absolutely. The dark side had wrecked her family and about a year okay after that my brother says to me hey you know always looking for a good practice space when it comes to the music or the band and and that kind of stuff and it’s a you know a shared with me how much just a giant pain the acid is a find somebody’s garage or something, you know, which you don’t use that side of the barn. Do you think could we build a room in there and I said, Well look, you know, at the time I was flat busted broke, I don’t have any money to put towards it. Well, you know, we got a couple more resources you don’t you don’t need to spend that much and I kicked a little bit towards it and other guys did and their labor and whatnot. And now Yeah, as we sit here get the original concept of this this room that calling the clubhouse was a practice space slash recording studio. Here we are recording in this studio fitting, we got a swing one of these times we’ll swing the camera around, you guys can see this

Michael 55:37
this place here. I want to I haven’t played those drums forever. There’s a yeah, there’s

Chris 55:41
an older but very effective Roland, electronic drum set sitting on a riser over that way. There’s guitar amps here and there are big bass bend over here the PA system sound baffles in here on the walls and in the ceiling. And that’s what it was originally thought of. And but yeah, you know, Josh talked about hobbies.

Josh 56:07
Get back to those things that make you who you are like, remember, what did I like doing beforehand? What were my hobbies? What am I like, kind of pushed to the side to make time for this other thing, you know, what have I neglected and you might have to go way back or you might have to find new hobbies.

Chris 56:24
And up until my wife left. As silly as it may sound, I had interest and I still didn’t have interest in playing a five string banjo. No. But once she left, man, the time that it took to stay proficient and practice and progress wasn’t there. You know, at this point. Now I’m pulling double duty trying to mimic the original timeline for my girls and what I needed to do. But once this space was built, happy wasn’t even completely built, the walls are still unfinished, muddied up drywall. You know, we were out here and I had picked up an acoustic guitar and my brother was like, here’s a couple chords. Let’s see if he can figure this out. And I’m like, Whoa, okay. And yeah, then the electric guitars and you were taking lessons? Never had one muscle? Right one. Jason, my younger brother is toward the beginning there. Here’s some pointers. Here’s some understandings. Yeah, no, never, ever did. So I’m blessed to have this that, you know, Josh talked about throwing knives and shooting, shooting his bow. I’m all about shooting ability, but most of the year you’re on the property. But to have a space, I’m lucky enough to have a space like this where I can get away from whatever I need to get away from and even then, you know, the guys when we would there be jam sessions on Friday nights and stuff. This is my barn. So I’d be out here by myself. On a weekend or an in an evening. And let me let me play with that chord progression here a little bit. Let me understand this strum pattern and yeah, it’s kind of cool. You know, when you jack into a PA, we you’re the only one in here. But man, you can turn it up. Oh, that’s fun. So those, you know, when Josh pointed out, you know, finding those those things about you? Yeah, I thought man he is hitting the nail on the head here. As far as remembering who you are, you know that the therapy that I went through myself after my wife left was invaluable. And in that in that therapist talked specifically to that point of she said about trying to remember who you are, and discover more about who you are. And, you know, I’ll never forget she said, she said, you know, your goal is to be the best Chris you can be. And part of that whole moving forward thing of I was into a lot of different things. But what did I really really like what made me me? And then and then try to start to pursue those those things more and more, and it made a big difference.

Michael 59:26
Well, you I mean, you certainly have to say this all the time. It’s it’s an opportunity, you certainly had that opportunity. Suddenly, whatever your custody schedule was, there’s going to be a hole in your life. You’re gonna go from having them all the time having family being a unit to sometimes being completely fucking alone. And you can fill that void and any way you want it but the best way is to make it a healthy thing and I think an exploratory thing where you ask the question and try to answer it. Who the fuck am I? Yeah, who am I now was I always made Be or who could I be are sort of other things that I can explore maybe sort of podcasts.

Chris 1:00:06
And I’m a big advocate for the fact that that takes time. It’s not the kind of thing a week later. Oh, yeah, I remember I like that. And it did and this and that, and I’m better now. No, I’m sorry. I just don’t work that

Michael 1:00:21
well. I say all the time about because I because I see it all the time. Guys are certain certain I’m good. I’m so good as any other way to you know, this is never gonna get any better. Thanks. Certainty is incredibly dangerous, because especially on the law, I think both ways. But the part of me feels like it’s worse when you feel like you’re good. I know. I’m good. Especially if it’s I have a new girl. Oh, fucksakes.

Chris 1:00:45
Only a SIP toxin. Absolutely.

Michael 1:00:48
I seen. I want to you’re a bit of that. So we’re at home. Yeah. I was in it the first time the other day. And oh, my God, I didn’t know. And there is an aisle where there’s the artwork, Star Wars stuff. And one of it said, I find your lack of faith disturbing. My son has that on on the wall in his room. Oh, yeah. It’s yeah, it’s like a narrow

Chris 1:01:12
banner tight. Yep. About that long, pretty big, and it flips back and forth, depending on how you look. That’s cool. It says it says that, and then it says something about Luke, Luke, I am your father. And then you look at it a different way. And

Michael 1:01:29
that’s awesome. Yeah, I didn’t know. Anyway.

Chris 1:01:35
Sorry. Yeah. The certainty is where you were at? Yes. And it is a dangerous area,

Michael 1:01:41
especially when you feel like you’re going good. And then two days later, like, I’m the worst. It’s never I’ve made any progress. I feel I’ve sort of a it’s like a bag of the beginning to be ship of.

Chris 1:01:52
So realistic acceptance is where it’s at. It’s where it’s truly at. I’m good today. Yeah. I’m real big. Today, I’ve worked through these things. I feel like I have a pretty good grip on it. tomorrow’s a new day. And I’m gonna continue to work in that in those realms. And

Michael 1:02:10
you’re always going to have bad eight and no matter even if you hadn’t didn’t have a divorce. life’s gonna kick in the balls. Yep, it just does that. It, it will inevitably kick you in the balls, because that’s just the way life is. And if you are certain that you’re good in this scenario, and then like kicks you in the balls, you’re gonna feel even worse. It’s just like Josh said, and again, you’ve covered so many things. And like we talked about, like, Don’t date. Yes, please don’t fucking date.

Josh 1:02:42
And we’re taught this to is like, Oh, just get back on the horse, go find another relationship, go find the next girl. I think that is the absolute worst thing that you can do. Because, again, like we talked about, like, for those listening, if you know or don’t know, what an avoidance strategy is, it’s like I was talking about drinking, it makes me allows me not to have to focus on the real problem. And so if I’m hurting from a relationship, and I go jump into another one, like, I’m just shooting my endorphins back through the roof, so I feel like I’m happy. I feel like I’m good. When in reality, I’m just putting a BandAid on a bullet hole. Because it’s something as soon as something goes wrong with that new one, then now I’ve got to deal with the emotion from that as well as the emotion I haven’t dealt with yet. And I guarantee you they’re going to tap into each other

Michael 1:03:26
because it can cause you to sue that pain artificially and then if that fails, and it probably will because you didn’t develop any skills or tools or anything around relationships and so then it’s probably going to fail and then you’re going to be fucked again and in a double whammy in a way because you didn’t even fucking deal with the first one and now you’re now you’re new you’re facing the second one and it’s

Chris 1:03:52
but it doesn’t matter how many times you tell guys know this. Many of them still fall prey to I see it all the time. I

Michael 1:04:00
see it all the time in that larger group. I see it all the time.

Chris 1:04:02
The truth of the matter is I wish there was a statistic I could pull out for you but the truth of matter is that if if a man takes that time to learn who he is again remember what’s what what’s right what’s wrong, what’s good and what’s bad for him for his family. All that stuff get yourself relatively certain that you’re you’re healed you’re you’re good place instead of that prideful nature I’m good thing

Michael 1:04:39
fuck her. I’m good. i This is the best thing around me and Okay, five years from the day Sure. Five months, five days, five weeks, two months a year. Maybe you if you feel that way very quickly in the process. So

Chris 1:05:02
just be wary of that. Yeah,

Michael 1:05:03
be very wary. Now enjoy it, celebrate it, celebrate your victory, celebrate your good days 100%. But just know that it’s a good day or a good moment, it doesn’t mean that it’s over. Because then when you do that you set yourself up for failure. I’m not saying be pessimistic. I’m not saying when you feel good punch yourself in the balls to beat yourself down off the cloud. Like, I can’t be happy. No, no, that’s what I’m saying. I’m just saying, Be mindful that it’s possible that tomorrow might be a shitty fucking day. And that doesn’t that’s not it’s okay. It doesn’t mean you’re back at the beginning. It doesn’t mean you didn’t make any progress. I say this all the time. You can’t go backwards unless you went forwards. So it means you made some progress. So you went back, okay. It’s a bad day. It’s a bad moment. Maybe that turns into and if you develop tools, it doesn’t. It doesn’t become a bad hours don’t become bad days become bad weeks become bad months become bad lives. Yes. Right. They just they just when you develop those tools, you can sit with it and process it and then move the fuck on. You know, and I know, easier said than done. I’m not saying it’s easy.

Chris 1:06:08
No, however, gaining that self confidence. And that self worth is enough to drive someone when they’re having a situation where they’ve taken one step forward. And they’re pushed two steps back in their life. To come back into that into themselves. And knowing your Josh was reminding himself I am a good father. Yeah.

Josh 1:06:35
I think a negative thought, like, for instance, a negative thought I used to have all the time as I’m a bad father. So that’s like one attack telling me that I’m a bad father. I would verbally say like, I’m a great father. And what that means to me is it like one, I had to think that I’m a great father, too. I said it out loud. And three, as I’m talking, I hear myself. So it’s like kind of a three punch counter. You know, that’s how I like to think about it.

Chris 1:06:59
And being able to and even talked about code. You guys spoke about what? Or what, however, I forget the words, I apologize, but something about something you’re telling yourself every day. Oh, yeah. That it’s a tool. It’s a method of reminding yourself and then re instilling and bolstering that, that self worth. That’s self confidence that I might have screwed up, but I can do better. And I’m gonna keep trying to do better. I’m gonna have the perseverance. And my dad invented the word stick to itiveness. To to keep at it. Own your own your losses. Yeah. And your victories too. It’s, it’s great. It’s hard, but it makes you way better, man. Oh, yeah. I

Michael 1:07:53
mean, I think the probably wrap up with this, but I think being a man is what I’ve come to, came to, probably, either during or after the output, I think being a man is about ownership. That your shit all that yours. Your wins, losses, your victories, your sadness, your joy, your faults, your strengths, your weaknesses, all all of it, it’s it’s all your own it own it. And, and don’t run from who you are. And if there are things you want to improve, that’s fine. We all do have things we want to improve things we want to be better at, then take it on. And either and try to change it or accept it. Sometimes we have to. That’s one of the weeks of my program is you have to sometimes draw a line in the sand and say to yourself, This is who I am and I accept it. Or this is how I am I don’t fucking like it. Does that come a little bit from Dr. MC? radical acceptance she talks about I love that portion of Yeah, I’m not sure where I you know, honestly. So I sit down. I want you I want to dive into this rabbit hole. But I’ll try and be quick.

Chris 1:09:07
We can we can cover

Michael 1:09:09
that as soon as possible. But ever been. Ah. So at one point I had my previous job was not it’s not going well, I found out they were trying to fire me essentially. Yeah. And I was like fuck. And I started thinking about all the stuff that I do around the podcast and on the support groups. And I thought I really liked that shit. I don’t care about this corporate America job. Yes, it pays the bills, but I don’t like it. And I ain’t done nothing wrong and they want to fucking fire me thought that this is bullshit. So I thought I’ve been trained to be a coach. I didn’t go to school for it. I initially wanted to do that. Especially that was as I got through the Alpha code that became my goal. I wanted to be a coach, because I wanted to impart wisdom and tools that I had learned Give it the other men, other men specifically to help them through divorce because you look around what’s out there for men going through a divorce that to to help them mentally. Ain’t much. I mean, there’s a couple small things here and there. John Kim obviously speaks to it a little bit, because he is that’s his story, but it’s not his focus. And so I said, Alright, target. Actually, I think I was having a conversation on a live video and two guys, Scott and Eric said, I think you I think it would be a great coach and I said, Okay. Do you want me to coach you? I’ll do it for free. They said, Fuck yeah. I said, Okay, let’s give it a shot. Shit. What am I gonna do? Ah, yes. Now I need to understand my path. And that’s I said, I literally sit down with my red notebook that I still have. And I wrote out what is my what would if I did a program? What would it look like? And I drew from the Alpha code somewhat, it’s not exactly the same. There are some weeks that are different. But I just kind of drew from what I went through and thought about what are some of the things that helped me or things that i i needed to realize or come to, you know, what, what? And I drew from my experiences for sure. With MC McDonald, my week one is, is on narrative therapy that absolutely came from her and the work that she did four sessions with me, and I saw myself in a fucking different light. That’s awesome. She was amazing, because she’s amazing. But like that process, I would just I really bought into it and there verse writing your story, and writing it in a way that is positive for you. Because we sometimes well, frequently, we write our stories in a very negative way because we’re negatively biased. And especially through this process, because you’re being told negative things you’re not like, it’s not like, well, you are the best but I have to leave and I’m taking the kids or whatever, right? You know, it’s more like yours such as narcissistic, gaslighting, borderline personality piece of shit. Okay, so, so I think rewriting that story is very, very powerful. So, so anyway, so I drew from my experiences through through the opcode, for sure, through work with MC McDonald, through the work with Erica, through the work with my personal therapist, like I, I have done so much work on me and drew from many different sources and sat down and said, what works for me, and with the exception of one week, and I just moved it up. It’s been the same since I developed it. And it’s seen it fucking working. And it’s really weird. And it’s like, even weird to even talk about because, yeah, I created it. And it’s, it’s really amazing thing, I guess, or whatever, but like, I don’t do the work. Like, there’s guys that couldn’t cut it didn’t make it. Yeah, and I had to, you know, sorry, you gotta go because you’re not doing your work. And there’s guys that Geron just graduated last week. And I mean, the Trent the change in him, you know, it sounds I don’t even know how to say it in a way that doesn’t sound like salesy or cheesy or bullshit, but the fact is, that man came to that program. Anxious, broken, emotional, in a bad way. And in terms of it being overwhelmed by it, unsure of himself, questioning, and now he’s just he’s all I can think to say to him all the time, every time I see him now, you know, he does a lot of videos. He’s just centered and peace. He’s at peace with who he is awesome. It’s I can’t I don’t know how to describe it in a way that doesn’t sound fucking i don’t know i it the people that are in the group that got to see it. Will they understand what I’m talking about? Yeah, let the results speak for itself. And he asked me he’s like, I’ll do a testimonial. He’s already done it. I was like, I hate to ask somebody. Would you be cool with doing a video testimonial and say, Yeah, okay, I’ll do a video. He’s gonna do that. He said, You know what, I love this program so much. And this is sort of announcement. I guess I didn’t plan on this. Oh, here we go. I want to sponsor somebody. So he’s gonna pay someone to go through the program. That’s awesome. Yeah, I mean, that’s how it that’s how much it impacted him. Now, listen, I’m not saying it’s you know, it’s not going to fix you whatever the fuck that means. But you have to fix yourself 100% But it will give you some tools and give you a space to I honestly didn’t plan this turn into this like an advertisement Sorry, just came up. Here we are. rabbit holes. You know, he so I haven’t worked out all details yet in terms of we just actually had the conversation last night. I said, you talked about this pretty early on, probably like midway through. He’s like this, I want to sponsor someone that’s like, Okay, that’s cool. Talk about later, finish the program. Right. And now Now he’s done. So we had a conversation. He’s like, all right, he’s like, I’ll tell you what, I’m gonna do it. I committed to it. Find someone you pick them. I trust your judgment. Have them pay. Okay, when they’re done. I’ll reimburse them. I’ll give you the money. He said In fact, he then he messaged me later So I’m gonna, I’ll give you the money when they pay, just so you have it. And then when they when they graduate, you pay him back. So they get a full refund. And it’s, you know, it’s not cheap. I mean, for apparently Alpha code,

Chris 1:15:14
it’s cheap. That’s better than going through the drive thru and the guy in front of you paid for your

Michael 1:15:18
Oh, it’s way better. That’s awesome. Yeah. I mean, that, you know, and it speaks to, you know, maybe the program, but it speaks to him and the kind of people that I think that you kind of need in your life, people that are dedicated to working on themselves, and being introspective and asking questions and doing the work and, and being mindful and all the things that lead to think mental, positive mental health. It’s critical, and like, your, your friendship is so valuable to me, because of that reason, because we have these conversations. Yes, we can talk about our feelings and emotions and, and be real and honest. And supportive. Yes. And you need those kinds of people in your life in Oh, yeah, I feel like it’s somewhat harder to find, AB in general, but certainly it feels like it’s harder to find amongst men.

Chris 1:16:12
It is, it is it is very much harder to find amongst men. We’re saying this, like we’re comparing it to, to what women do, right? Because I truly don’t know, I don’t know how I have no idea. I don’t know the depth. Or the shallowness of a woman’s support to another woman. And, and I can imagine, it’s similar to you know, what you and I run into men that are on the surface have that, that mindset of support and, and help him and want to behave as though but when it gets down to nitty gritty, and you’re calling me at 11 o’clock at night, or I’m calling you, yeah, you know, and crying on the other end of the phone. And, you know, you sit with one another, through it, and you hold that space, and you let them cry. And I’ve had conversations with you in those mannerisms and other guys that through since the inception of this, that I’ve helped with and mentor and I’m on the phone with them, and they’ll start to cry, and then they’ll start to apologize. Yeah. And I nip it in the bud that work? And I’m like, oh, no, no, no, no, please continue. You need this and it is okay. And please do not be embarrassed by it. It’s okay. Let it out. Do you know and to have that kind of support? Maybe women do it? I have

Michael 1:17:45
no idea. I think that’s what real men do. Oh, for 100%. No question. And I think I think what women don’t do because they don’t have to, maybe maybe I don’t know, maybe I’m wrong. I shouldn’t. I shouldn’t say in my mind. I imagine women don’t apologize crying to other women, because that’s what they do. And I don’t mean that in a negative way. I just mean that they were allowed. They’re alive. They were a little. Yeah, yeah. No one ever told. Oh, I shouldn’t say that. It’s rare. I think the generalization is that boys are told stop crying. And girls aren’t. Girls are comforted and taken care of and nurtured in an emotional way. Again, generally, yeah. And boys are told to stop crying. And it leads to us to so I was gonna wrap up earlier a lot. I’m gonna wrap up with this. Let’s keep going. I promise. So I mentioned this the other day that CDC I think it was recently came out with a report it said about how teenage girls are feeling anxious. And, and I’m tempted to pull it up. But

Chris 1:18:51
I know you did talk to me on the phone about the other day that I can’t read

Michael 1:18:55
sensually it was today’s girls feel unsafe, anxious, and in face violence on an epidemic scale. Wow. Yeah. And I actually talked to my oldest daughter she’s like, yep, sounds right to me. And I’m like, Jesus kid. That’s terrible. Right. And it’s it’s unfortunate that on it’s still that message is still being permeated through fucking idiot assholes like Andrew Tate. You know, that fucking idiot is

Chris 1:19:25
you don’t want to know. I’m sorry.

Michael 1:19:26
I don’t Yeah, he’s a he’s a he’s in jail right now. In his message is essentially women are subservient. Men need to you know, be not you don’t know if he’s says specifically be violent, but he was a kickboxer. He was on Big Brother. He’s a celebrity buddy’s got these tick tock videos, although he’s banned from all social media, but he’s had these viral videos that basically pissing all over women essentially And then it gets eaten up. Because it’s easier to be pissed off and angry. Because that’s the only way you’re allowed to be. And it’s in it’s it’s easier to be that way if that’s the way you’ve sort of been shaped and molded by society by being told not to cry, because if you do, I guarantee Andrew Tate doesn’t say it’s okay to cry. He’s gonna say you’re being a bitch. Yeah, this is a guy who carries around a sword. He’s like you cuz you should carry around a sword. So in case you’re a woman, woman talks, talks back you can see people a P He’s a he’s like a millionaire a couple, maybe 100 times over? I don’t know. But it’s unfortunate that that it’s so much easier. That message is simple. Women are evil. See, look, they’re leaving at a rate of relieving marriages that rate of 80%. They, they whatever, right? It’s easy to blame point fingers. And that message, I say this all the time to I would be nothing I’m looking for. Like I say, I’m looking for success, but I’m not. It’s like doesn’t drive me I’m just looking to help but I will be way more successful. I think, famous whatever that fame is, I don’t give a about that. But I don’t know. It’s successful. Maybe it’s the right word. If I just told everybody it’s not it’s not your fault. It’s not your fault. It’s not your fault. It’s their fault when we’re programmed that way. They’re evil. They’re just out for your money. If you don’t have money, they don’t love you. You’re if you’re if you’re if you’re a man, you’re not you’re not loved unconditionally, only only women and animals are whatever dumb shit that everybody wants to be told. It’s not your fault. Yeah. And here’s the thing sometimes it is fucking a right it is because you don’t have the fucking tools. And also, spoiler alert here. You’re a fucking human so you’re gonna fuck up? We all fuck up. So that message that it’s not your fault. It’s women are programmed that way. It’s genetics bro. Or what the fuck ever they say is more chips nonsense. It just is. And so I think we’re unfortunately fighting against something that’s just so ingrained in and damn near. I’d say almost I don’t want to say impossible because it’s not true. But really, really difficult to push back against that because it’s a lot easier to point fingers and to look inward and say, maybe sometimes I was a fucking asshole. Maybe sometimes I did things I shouldn’t have and I need to work on me. And it’s not even really about blame. You know, it’s more about what now? Well, what now is what, what are you able to do? And that’s focused on you. You can’t Yeah, let’s say okay, women are evil. Okay, so But don’t you still want to be a good man?

Chris 1:22:42
Because me I gotta be a better means I’m going to be a better me.

Michael 1:22:45
Right. And the one thing the one thing that I find hilarious to me is there’s this chick pearl. And you seen it? I’m seriously the Tick Tock videos. She’s telling how all women are leaving at 80% Yeah, that’s that’s Perl. I find it hilarious that he’s shitting on women as a woman herself. Like, so which ones all women or everybody but you Pearl like Get the fuck out of here that pandering bullshit. It’s just it’s, it’s It’s sickening to me in a way.

Chris 1:23:20
There’s gotta be money behind it.

Michael 1:23:21
Oh 100%

Chris 1:23:22
we’re creeping towards Sean Whalen territory.

Michael 1:23:25
Oh, well. We’ll get the Mr. Whelan. I’ll alright. I promise this is it. I’m wrapping it up with this. I’m gonna. I’ll do Oh, yeah, that’s right. Well, maybe it’s a different one. I’ve been going through all my old episodes and pulling the words of wisdom clip. And by the way,

Chris 1:23:42
I totally enjoyed the first one.

Michael 1:23:44
Thank you. I meet you. I enjoy doing it. And by the way, I’ve learned that sometimes I asked that question way too long winded. And I just need to get to the fucking point. Yeah, hey, I’ve learned that learning. Yeah. And I’ve also learned that I don’t ask it the same way all the time, up until a certain point, but anyway, that’s beside the point. I made it to the Sean Whalen episode. And every other episode, I think that I had decent audio or video or that I could find because there was some that I didn’t pull from because I couldn’t either with pre pre well, sometimes I don’t know. It wasn’t anything. I couldn’t find it I just sometimes it just didn’t ask the question. So anyway, so I made it to the shots my own episode and I couldn’t it’s the only one that I listened to. And I couldn’t pull a fucking thing from because he said nothing positive. He said, Oh, your wife left you good good. Yeah, I mean, he said nothing positive. Now he’s we’ll get to him in his episode, but he said some really good things in that episode. But he said some really stupid fucking dumb things. And and that and again, I didn’t have maybe the balls for have to stand up and say That’s dumb. But his was the only one so far, I haven’t been able to pull, like some of them weren’t great. No offense to anybody, but I was still able to pull some nugget out. Even if it was 10 second, like, be yourself or what the fuck ever, like, most still positive? That’s the point of it. That’s the point of this whole thing. Yeah, and especially that that’s words of wisdom. What kind of wisdom is good? I’m glad you LightWave left you what? Five? How is that wise? Anyway? So on to you, sir. You

Chris 1:25:33
have? Oh, yeah, this is what I think, as we wrap up, we’ve talked to you guys about during our first go round episode of this, that we were going to create an email address we have, we are looking for communication, through it back and forth. add to the list, if you will, Mike, but things is such as suggestions about what you’d like to hear us talk about our plan as we go is coming down, you know, deep in deeper into the weeds with with each of these episodes working through them. That that, but that doesn’t have to be the limit. The other thing is, you know, we can address absolutely about we can talk about. We let you know, as you write in, let us know if it’s that thing. You want to keep anonymous for who you are. And we will completely respect that.

Michael 1:26:27
Yeah. And by the way, there may be some questions you want to ask but you don’t you don’t because you’re not anonymous make up a buck an email address. I don’t you can ask me anything you want. And that I think, you know, I don’t wanna speak for you, but about my story about my life about anything you want. As long as it’s somewhat kind of irrelevant. Like, I’m not gonna give you the social security numbers of my kids are. Like, auto, I’m an open book. So there’s anything there questions about our stories, topics you’d like us to cover guests. I mean, we’re gonna plan to make it through and on the couch, man. Yeah, that’s true. That’s true, too. I really do think we will hit everyone. Honestly, they might not all be long. But I think each one, if I put it out there, I think it’s at least a little worthy of discussion. Now there might be an instance where we lump few together. Sure. I don’t know what but I’m just thinking of, you know, if there’s one it’s like, I don’t know. And we can talk a little bit but then we got nothing then maybe we we swoop in with another one. I’d like to keep going sequentially but but that’s okay. If we don’t do it’s not it’s not the end of the world. If we don’t do that, but anything around this topic of divorce, and kids and dating even I’ll even feel to do question two questions. Yeah, I mean, I even talked about being like, fucking sucks. There you go. And story. Oh. But But anyway, you you have the email I just because I don’t remember if you have it handy, dear sir. I think now I don’t want to speculate. Here it is.

Chris 1:28:04
Alright. You go. The letters are C M, D, I s c o u. R s e@gmail.com. That is C. M discourse@gmail.com.

Michael 1:28:25
Yeah. Yeah, feel free to hit us up. We will I think probably, I think every other week is is something to shoot for. But we also may do it every week, really depends on scheduling and stuff. So definitely gotta keep coming. And we’d appreciate feedback and questions and direction even should you choose to want to provide some input. We would love it. I know. I know. I wouldn’t. I know he wants. Yeah. Thanks for listening. That’s all for this one. We’ll see you next time. Thanks, guys.

Episode 97 – The Discourse Episodes- Episode 2 Review



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