Episode 75 - Transcript - Real Men Real Stories - Per - She Filed - Has Children

By Michael Rhodes | August 8, 2022

This is a transcription of Episode 75.  The transcription was done by software, apologies for anything that seems out of whack. A link to the episode is below.

 

Michael 0:00
What’s up, gentlemen? This is Rising Phoenix Podcast, the podcast about how to rise up after your divorce. I’m your host, Michael Rhodes. Let’s get into it. Joining me today is Per, Per? Why don’t you just jump right into it? And tell us a little bit about yourself?

Per 0:16
Yeah, it was really nice to be able to be on your podcast, by the way, it’s awesome. It’s really nice to be able to share my story and hopefully, being impacted in some people’s lives to be able to help them. And that’s why I wanted to share my story. So yeah, I was married for 20 years. And I guess you hear from my accent is not West Texas, it’s actually a Swedish accent, you should joke about that. But I grew up in Sweden, for an in a very loving family, my mom and dad stayed married, they definitely had struggles in their marriage. But the the last part of their marriage was awesome. So I grew up in a very loving family, I got married when I was 27, I think it was met an American, in Los Angeles, so of all places, and fell in love, and had a fairly good marriage, I think for the, probably the first 60 70% Like the first 12 years, but then they started going down which with many things, you know, both kids, my two youngest daughters had any illness and a lot of a lot of fear. And, and a lot of focus, especially from my wife side to the kids, neglecting me, I felt very neglected. And I can understand part of that, but it became more and more so it was and we have four kids 25 2318 and 16. And also had to deal with a lot of alienation after the divorce. So the divorce was initiated by my wife six years ago. And with a lot of not true things in the divorce decree or in the filing. And and it brought a lot of fear into the whole divorce itself by initiating with lies in the divorce filing. And that’s still to this day, there lot of strife in our relationship, you know, we only communicate via the mail, currently. And it’s still, I have always been quick and bailed, be quick to forgive. And my my ex have had a really hard time to come, I can go past this stuff is kind of like become a big snowball for her. And I think she has a lot of anger. And that’s why she’s used to kids against me. And it went initially, even while we’re in court, she’s texting my son, and telling him that I’m lying, and I’m trying to screw her over. And then he didn’t talk to me for eight months after the divorce. And now I have a very good relationship to all kids. But it’s taken me a long time, a lot of patience, a lot of disconnecting trying to stay connected, even though a large part of this period, I had to travel back and forth to Sweden, and being away for months, sometimes a month at a time. And same thing with my girls. Two and a half years ago, my my ex started talking to my girls and saying that I I wasn’t fulfilling, I wasn’t paying child support. I wasn’t doing this and this. And it’s not true. And I’ve never missed a child support payment. And they stopped talking to me for like six months. So yeah, it’s been a very up and down journey. But right now, I’ve never felt better my whole life. It’s like, I work as financial advisor. I also coach people through divorce and using that both as a coaching, also mentoring because I have all these experience, I really want to help people. And I do that part time. And I really love doing that to be able to give back. And it’s also part of the healing process to be able to give back and helping others. Yeah, powerful.

Michael 4:16
So let’s let’s hone in on on alienation a little bit because it’s something that I don’t think I’ve specifically dealt with, but what in what ways did she I mean, you sort of describe some of what in what ways did you try and alienate or did she alienate?

Per 4:29
Yeah, speaking poorly about me lying about me, mainly. That’s my my oldest son was probably the one that has been closest to her. And she’s using him as a tool to be able to manipulate and getting more out of me in the divorce process. And also, with the girls is mainly to try to get her way. I think to be able to I manipulate and using the kids to be able to as a leverage to be able to get more money, getting other things, et cetera. And if she does doesn’t get her way, she, you know, she uses her kids.

Michael 5:15
Now, how do you? How has your lawyer recommended you combat that type of stuff?

Per 5:22
I asked initially, if I should go to court, I asked. First, I asked my counselor, I asked my lawyer. And the thing is, the sad thing with lawyers is that a lot of times they like to be an extra. And so he was all for to go into court. And he said it, you know, most of my money I don’t make on the initial divorce, it’s after to make adjustments on the divorce decree, which is sad. It’s a totally this legal system. I have a lot of comments about as well. But I know a lot of people have that as well. So but my counselor said, yeah, you can go to court, you can drive this, but your relationship to your kids will most likely not improve, even if you force them to come over to your place, etc. So she actually recommended me to just be patient and reconnect in different ways because we had joint custody. It wasn’t that I wanted more legal time, but I wanted the time I was supposed to be able to get. And the kids also were at the age where in Texas, you can, you know, the kids can choose themselves, if you’re of a certain age, like 14 years old, that they if you have a court hearing, they’re gonna have to ask the child, do you want to spend more time with your dad or mom, etc? And I didn’t want to drag them into court, etc? Yeah, I think for me, that was the right thing. If the kids would have been a lot younger than it would probably be in a different story.

Michael 6:57
So it did. Was there any recommendations for like document document? Or in case you did one eventually go to court like it? Was there any of that kind of advice?

Per 7:06
I asked my lawyer, and he’s definitely said, document everything that happens. And I did. Especially initially, I don’t do it anymore.

Michael 7:16
Right. So what what about the I think you started to mention, counselor, was there counselors involved on for your children without therapy?

Per 7:27
Yeah, be dead. And that was one of the best things we did in the divorce is that we actually wrote in the name of the counselor as well, in the divorce decree, and agreed on on how much counseling it I think, is very good to be able to put that in writing. So you have that an agreement. So they went through counseling for two years, my youngest two daughters, my boys, my oldest, when just, you know, sporadically. And my second oldest, he only went one time, and he didn’t want to go, but he was over 18. So he could choose himself. But my daughters, they definitely went to counseling. And me and my ex wife went with as well as every other time and be then sit in, but then afterwards be the gathered together and talk and they could ask questions, and etc. So that that was absolutely fabulous. That was really, really good.

Michael 8:17
So what are when, what you said, 20 years? So when when did it all sort of start to go wrong? Like or when did you notice this was going to start the wizard thing that, you know, were red flags that eventually it like you that you saw initially that you sort of ignored that, that started coming up, that you could no longer ignore? Or like what what led to the end of it?

Per 8:41
Yeah. I noticed our disagreements started. That was probably like, after 1213 years in but it was maybe five years before they actually divorced that we started having a lot of arguments. And my ex wife, she, she went through it, she had her own company, a lot of a lot of things on our plate. We were so busy all the time, didn’t have enough time for each other. The kids took up a lot of time. And I think that’s a big part of why it was falling apart. We didn’t prioritize a marriage. I was too busy with work. Definitely. So it’s, I truly believe is both are are doing entire divorce going south. And it was almost like I wasn’t completely aware. It sounds weird, but it’s like, it feels like it was so busy with everything. You’re driving kids everywhere. You have all these doctor’s appointments, you have to make money, and it was just going too fast. And you would have to need to slow down and I started realizing that and we got a counselor. Initially it was my wife that wanted a counselor and I said no I don’t want a counselor The weekend reconfigures itself and this probably like four years before the divorce. And then after six months, probably I said, Okay, let’s go to a counselor. And then after two sessions, see didn’t want to go, okay. And then we went to another counselor two times, and she was running out of there, frustrated and angry whenever he asked her questions, and then the third counselor, and same thing there. So it was difficult. And the unraveling was my, you know, my, my wife had an affair. And then I found out the questionnaire about it. And it’s been going on for like, almost a year. And then actually C filed for divorce. I still wanted to work it out. Because he was over it was, it was done. But she, she wanted to end it. And that was it.

Michael 10:56
What we come back, what are some of the lessons that you’ve learned things that you’ll apply into? Should there be an ex relationship?

Per 11:02
Yeah, I’ve actually been dating now for five months. Yeah, it’s, I definitely think if you’ve been married, or in a relationship long term, I think you need to take a pause after a relationship before you start dating again. I started dating pretty much right after the divorce decree was signed. And it was only out of loneliness. I was so lonely, you know, because of the alienation. And also that they just had moved here. I didn’t have any friends here. I was extremely lonely, depressed, and I just wanted to have a friend and out there it’s like, so it started dating for a year. And then I just started really realizing after two, three months, short relationships or whatever you want to call it. I’m not ready to date. I’m dating for the wrong reason. And so I actually took two years off dating over two years. And I just, I’m just starting to rediscover me, what do I like to do? So the biggest learnings is really, to do the self care. It’s a kind of like, I think it’s I don’t know if it’s the right word to use. But it’s like, starting to figure out what do you love to do. As I started playing golf again, I played a lot of golf when I was younger, and a lot of tennis. So I picked up golf, I picked out tennis, got a bunch of friends playing tennis and golf, my best friends now. And that’s actually how I met my my girlfriend on the tennis court and mixed doubles. And, and that was so organic. I wasn’t even dating. And she was just there. And she was wow, I had to ask her out. So I asked her out. And that was very nice. And I talked about that I have a podcast myself, called rocking life after divorce. And there I actually on the podcast share about dating apps. I think dating apps can be good in some areas. But I think organic dating is what are some people call it dating in the wild. Where you start to engage outside, for example. And that that breaks a lot of that loneliness to when you get out among other people. I think it’s so easy to get go down a vicious spiral in divorce and just kind of like, become lonely, depressed, suicidal thoughts, etc. But you really need to break out of that and get the help. I got a coach and a mentor also very early on. And that was absolutely the most critical thing to do. Because a lot of times you have blind spots, you don’t see the whole picture. Especially when it’s a lot of fear, to be able to have somebody to call, what would you do? Or what do you think to have somebody to kind of like talk to and have reached out to a few friends too. I reached out and that was actually my my counselor there said because I was so lonely. And then my my counselor said, reached out to a few friends you trust and share what you’re going through share the hurts that you’re going through. And it was four people. One of them was my brother, but it was actually the two people that had gone through divorce himself that could hear me they could understand I could I could talk to them and they could relate. I didn’t. My brother he’s awesome. He listened by never felt because he has a great marriage, but I never felt that he could really understand me. Yeah,

Michael 14:39
yeah, I think that’s pretty critical. Part of the recovery of getting, getting back to a sense of normalcy is finding someone you can talk to about it, get it out, but also someone that can reflect back and say, you know, yes, that happened to me too, or Yeah, you know, we’re You know, at least there’s enough similarities that it allows you to feel like you’re not alone, certainly. But it also aids in I think, and well, my MC my trauma expert guests said as much it’s important to, to express these things and get them out, you can’t keep them inside. And it’s easier with with a with a with people that can relate. So it validates your feelings. So it’s Yeah, I think it’s an incredibly important part of the process. So when everything kind of went down, what what were how were you emotionally? What were you thinking and feeling once the bomb was dropped, so to speak?

Per 15:42
I think for me, it was very difficult, because I didn’t want the divorce. Sure. And even though there was inflicted infidelity, I was willing to work through that. And I’m, I think, Man has a harder time with emotions, maybe not, you know, it’s like, a lot of times man has supposed to be the tough guy supposed to be able to go through and you don’t talk about feelings, etc. And that was pretty much me, not wanting to talk about feelings, didn’t feel that was comfortable talking about feelings. And that’s probably one of the biggest learnings going through divorce as I was forced to start dealing with feelings about hurt, and really to kind of dig in. And that was part of it was definitely my counselor, but also having these friends to be able to share because they also had difficulties. And I could see I could help them. So he was not only that, they were helping me, but I was able to help them. So it became like a dialogue. And the two of them are my absolute best friends today, we still talk about anything. You know, when we go through stuff, you can just call up and we talk every you know, several times a week, I was out to playing golf with my best friend here just a couple days ago this weekend. And to have that buddy that I’ve never had those type of friends before, where you can share your heart, you can just say, you know, share your hearts and you can talk about things, whatever it is.

Michael 17:14
Yeah, no, agreed. So did you were you did you go through any stages of intense anger towards your ex.

Per 17:22
Initially, it was more reaction, I’m a very peaceful person. I don’t want strife I don’t want I know, it doesn’t lead anywhere to start throwing stuff. I’m not a violent person. I’m very, I’m fairly logical. But I was definitely initially dealing with a lot of fear, because my ex filed a very hostile divorce. And then I filed a counter offer for full custody of my kids, because my lawyer said, if you don’t file a full custody, and you don’t get your green card, you’re never going to see your kids again, which was true. If I didn’t get a green card, but a lot of times lawyers, they they paint out this terrible picture. And that puts you into fear mode. And then I filed for full custody. And that was the worst thing I’ve ever done. Because I put so much fear into my exes side. And then she reacts to that with a bunch more. So it just alls. And. And then then after three weeks, my lawyer actually called my my wife a whore in court. Whoa. And that’s I fired him the next day. Yeah, that was just so wrong, just escalating. But he is a winning part in this because he can make it look really bad. Get all these arguments and make a bunch of money out of it.

Michael 18:54
Right. Right. So I mean, is there anything sounds like that? For sure. Is there anything else that you would do differently in the process?

Per 19:04
Definitely. Get a coach or mentor, counselor initially, even earlier on I didn’t get a coach and mentor until about six months after the divorce. And then a lot of damage was already done. The Counselor we got on fairly quickly. But that was more initially more counselor for the kids. Not for me. It became a counselor for me. I wish she would have been part early on. That’s probably the biggest learning to have somebody because to have all these blind spots. Everybody has blind spots, and Val to have is third neutral party that can help you through this process. I think it’s crucial.

Michael 19:48
No agreed, I think you know, finding someone that can help you get back to or even build back better than you previously. Where I think can be an important step, whether that’s a counselor or friend, someone that can not only listen to your, to your stress and your you know, the shit you’re dealing with, for lack of a better description, someone else someone to help you see that there’s light on the other side, there is life after divorce there is. And, you know, that’s one of the central reasons I started the podcast and the support group is that because it does get better it does, now you got to put some work in, it doesn’t magically happen, you can make it magically happen by fooling yourself by jumping right into dating and then finding someone and repeating that same cycle. But if you do the work, and whatever that means to you, for me, it’s you know, at least a part of it is just sitting with your shitty feelings and processing them and learning how to handle them and being more emotionally resilient. And if you do that kind of work, I think your start improving your your own self. And in a lot of ways, because that’s it’s hard work, it’s really hard work. And then I think once you do that, I think that you’re you’re going to attract a better quality mate or potential mates. So it’s not just the work that you do is beneficial for you in terms of your own health, it’s also better because you can find a better partner. And so I think doing the work is critical. And unfortunately, I don’t think everyone does. But those that do, I’ve seen it, I’ve I feel it myself, I’m in a much better spot. She’s, you know, even six months ago or whatever, like I mean, certainly from the beginning, you know, a year and a half ago, like I’m in a much better spot. And that’s a testament to doing the work. What are there any are any things that you, you know, Roger children that you would have done differently? You know, ways to communicate? Or how often you communicated? Or is there any kind of things there that that you would have done differently?

Per 22:23
Absolutely. At first, I’m going to comment what you just said about emotional intelligence, I guess you would call it to serve. Emotional Intelligence is probably one of the most important things to grow. And that’s for any area. And it doesn’t matter if you’ve gone through a divorce or any and employees and employers nowadays, most of them look more at your emotional intelligence than intelligence. Because you can form somebody that has high emotional intelligence, meaning that they can form them. And that’s what the employees wants to do. But that’s also something that you, you can learn throughout life and improve intelligence, you can’t improve, you got what you got. But emotional intelligence is something that you can grow. And that’s probably the thing that I’ve grown the most throughout this divorce and, and became aware of emotions. And I was actually I had a lot of shame about to divorce. My parents were married the whole life. My, my church, preached so much about staying married, and felt like a big failure. So I stopped going to church. And it wasn’t until I started sharing about the divorce with people that this shame dissipated. And so an author called Brene Brown that shares she’s a shame researcher. And when I started sharing it, it was actually on the aeroplanes flying back and forth to Sweden. I just decided five years ago, I’m going to talk to the person next to me. So my goal is actually learn to connect with people. And I started sharing my divorce story with people on their plane. And by me doing that this shame does dissipated. And that was so awesome to build to not being ashamed. That was probably the most the most difficult thing.

Michael 24:11
Yeah, agreed. I think something I learned in the Alpha code and something I developed is change doesn’t survive sunlight. Exactly. When you get it out it dies. Does and that’s it’s incredibly important, an important lesson and a healthy thing to do. Because shame is a is a bitch. I mean, it will have you thinking there’s something wrong with you. Not that you did bad things, but there’s something fundamentally wrong with you. And the more that you keep it in, the more that it spiral, you know, allows you to spiral or for exactly, so yeah, getting it out is is is a key. You know, it doesn’t surprise sunlight. It doesn’t survive, you know, openness and honesty, so great. Yeah.

Per 25:03
And when you get the emotional intelligence up there, when you start working on you to really do that, it’s like you say, you attract what you project. If you, if you’re a whole person, you’re gonna attract a whole person, if you’re a broken person, you’re gonna attract a broken person, if you want, if you want to have an awesome relationship, you have to do the inner work. And then you can start attracting people and they will be drawn to you. And that is so, so important. One of the most important things that you can do through this divorce because when you’re in the middle of it, when you I felt like I was sitting in the ocean, initially, first year in the in the in the divorce, I didn’t have any reference. I was kind of like feeling that I was sitting in a robot rowing, rowing, and it was no progress. It was so hard. But then now looking back five years later, I can see all the progress I made. And if you have a coach or mentor that can help you through that be your you know, share all your progress, even though you might not be able to see it. That’s a lot of power in that. Right.

Michael 26:11
No, I agree. Yeah. 100%. So, back to the kids situation, is there anything there you would have you would have done differently? Or changed? You know, based on hindsight?

Per 26:22
Yeah, I would definitely. But it comes back to me not filing the full custody. That’s what made the things spiraled out of control. By by having a counselor and a coach through the process, I think I did the best I could have done. Because I, I took a lot of effort, I decided to fly back and forth to Sweden even even though it hurt me financially. Because not only they might plane tickets, but I wasn’t able to work when I was here. So I flew every other month for five years. I stayed at Airbnb when I was in Texas, every other month. And I went I bent over backwards to be able to have my relationship with kids, because that’s the most important thing in my life. And to be able to spend time with them to see them grow up. So you see all because I didn’t have a green card, I still don’t have a green card. I’ve been fighting for that for five years about to get that in place. I hopefully get it there and next month, so but I did a lot of good things. I feel that because I did and the kids can see that. That’s why I have an awesome relationship with them now, even though we had a very turbulent time for time, during times. For example, one thing when I was traveling back and forth, when I was in Sweden, I started learning their games online. So we started playing video games. Because sometimes when you call a kid if you if you have a distance to your children, sometimes you talk on the phone for 510 minutes, and then you don’t have anything more to talk about. And if you have something you doing, for example, playing a video game, you get on Skype, and you just hang out, you strategize on the video game. And I did that for a year and a half with the kids and playing video games in like four different locations because my boys were in college. My girls were staying with my mom or at their mom. And I was in Sweden. We connected the same time and we hung out on a regular basis once or twice a week.

Michael 28:28
Interesting. That’s that’s interesting. I haven’t thought about something like that but pretty brilliant. I have to put some more thought on that. Do it do it for my kids because you’re right yeah, you you you know how’s your day is okay, like there’s not sometimes it’s like pulling teeth but you know because what you know what can you say? Especially we talk pretty much every day so you know that that can make bringing up you know, finding topics that difficult so that’s a it’s interesting. We’ll be back after a quick break.

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Per 29:42
Being creative, I think that’s the key. For example, I’ve tried to figure out things what the kids like. And that’s the key when you really try to connect. Connecting with your kids is a key not to just go out to a restaurant all the time but to truly They understand what what do your kids love to do, and praise and they’re all different. My oldest son he loves loves rock climbing. This is new since a little over a year ago. And then then I started rock climbing, not because I liked rock climbing, but I started to like it a little bit. Sure, but he likes it. So and now the all rock climb. Every week, we go rock climbing, and they started yoga. Two weeks ago, my, my, my son was let’s do yoga. Okay, let’s do yoga.

Michael 30:34
Well, it’s pretty clear, you’re your dedicated father. And that’s, that’s an important part of this, too, is not losing sight of what’s really important again, and it can be difficult. And not to say that your own mental health isn’t perhaps a bigger priority. Because definitely, yeah, as I say, you know, you put your oxygen mask on first, you know, type of view, but it’s, you know, it’s hard to, or it’s easy to lose sight that, that they’re, they’re important in this as well, and it wasn’t their choice and, and all those things. And sometimes you have to make some small sacrifices or maybe even large ones that, you know, you don’t want to, but But you know, it’s for the benefit of them. And that’s, that’s an excellent viewpoint and a great reminder to, to try and remember that, you know, they’re dealing with this too, and more than likely don’t want it either. And, I don’t know, if they have people, you know, I mean, lots of, there’s lots of divorce out there. So, you know, a decent amount of my daughter’s friends are, you know, have gone through it, or are going through it or whatever. And so, but I don’t know, if kids really, I don’t know, if they talk about that too much. I don’t think that they want to, you know, it’s sort of like, you know, they don’t want to you don’t want to really deal with it, because hurt hurtful and painful and plus embarrassing and shame. And so I don’t think kids have that same ability to, to, unless there’s some sort of program or whatever, but there’s no ability to really, you know, sit down with a friend and just talk about how the divorce sucks, like, I don’t know, if kids do that, you know, younger kids, obviously, when they get older, they probably would, but so I think it’s important to, you know, to talk with them too, and try and get their, their feelings. But but any and get them in counseling, that’s a, that’s a huge recommendation for me is, and find a good one. You know, it’s not always, not all counselors are good. You know, not all lawyers, not all people. So, you know, make sure you do your due diligence and, and vet, a counselor, and make sure you touch base with your kids and make sure that they like that particular person, you know, they see him a few times and try and get their feedback. But I think that’s an incredibly important part as well. Well, the last question I typically ask people is, what advice would you give to men that have just been told, just been served or just been asked to leave? Or were just let you know, the the the wife left the house and moved out? You know, they’re just starting this process, and they are scared and alone and confused and hurt. What What piece of advice would you give to those men,

Per 33:30
a man, absolutely to reach out, to reach out for help. If it’s to a few friends, if it’s to a counselor, if it’s somebody that you can talk to, because it’s so easy to go down the vicious spiral of loneliness, depression, suicidal, suicidal thoughts, et cetera, and get a support around you to not only to support you, but to have somebody that can call you out on your bullshit and not overreact. It’s sometimes it’s easy to overreact and take some time. For example, if you get an email, I don’t respond right away, I write the response. I don’t send it for 24 hours later, I read it again and then said a lot of times I was just, I can’t send that. And then you know, not, I never text texting can be very difficult because it’s instant. And you have you come up with all these feelings, etc. So I think, to be slow to respond, as well as is important, but definitely the most important to get support around you. You need you’re gonna need that in this journey. Especially that probably the first year or maybe two years. I actually got a roommate for a year and a half. And that was also with a guy that just went through a divorce. And that was also one of the best things I’ve done, because it broke a lot of that loneliness I had. Sure.

Michael 34:56
Yeah, agreed. Those are all Excellent points. And I think you know, your story is is important. It’s a little bit different than mine in terms of alienation, I didn’t really do really deal with that. So hopefully your story brings hope to men that are going through that similar type of situation. And but just the fact that you are, you survived, and you’re doing pretty well. You know, you, you’re starting a podcast, or you have a podcast, which I want to get to the you know, how to find that. I’m assuming you’re everywhere. But we’ll talk about that in a sec. You know, you’re an example of a success story, you know, still still probably, I think you would agree still still a work in progress has. But you’ve come out the other side, you you dealt with some pretty severe situation. And here, you are thriving. So thank you for coming on. Thank you for telling your story. I think it’s an important one. How do people find your your podcast was the best way.

Per 35:55
It’s called rocking life after divorce, and has a lot to do with that I started rock climbing with my kids. Because rock climbing and life has a lot of similarities. You go through these easy paths during life. And you go through these very, very difficult paths in life, when if you’re going to go and climb Mount Everest, you’re not going to climb up there by yourself the first time and and you’re going to need a guide, somebody that’s already done, the journey and same thing in divorce, it is going to be can be the most difficult thing you’ve ever done in your life. And that’s you’re going to need that support around you. So that’s what the podcast is about to bring hope having people stories to share the stories and have other people be able to listen into it. But it’s definitely been I myself, I’ve never felt better, but is by doing the journey. And I think that divorce can be this catalyst for anybody that’s going through divorce, to make it into something beautiful, instead of this vicious downward spiral into something beautiful. It can be

Michael 36:53
no agreed. I think it takes a while to get to that mindset, but it there is no better opportunity in your life to redefine or define for the first time perhaps who you are as an individual. Exactly. So yeah, it’s a really great opportunity is the podcast on all all all platforms? All platform? Okay, great. Well, again, thank you, man, I appreciate it. This is a great story. I look forward to being on your podcast. At some point, you know, once this is out, we’ll we’ll talk. Maybe we can do a q&a with the guys. Like I said, there’s just one gentleman who’s really dealing with alienation. And I’m sure he would love to pick your brain. I would love to make you available to him, quite frankly, because I can’t relate to that. Not to that extent. So it’d be great to do a q&a as well. And, and I just like to thank you for being willing wheeling in vulnerable and sharing your story. It’s important and it’s it’s, it’s what’s needed and more of it is needed. So again, I thank you very much.

Per 37:52
It’s an honor to be on the podcast. So it’s a lot of fun to be able to share and spend time with guys.

Michael 37:57
Yeah, agree. Amen. Well, thanks, sir. I appreciate it. And we will definitely do it again.

Episode 75 – Real Men Real Stories – Per – She Filed – Has Kids

https://www.risingphoenixpodcast.com

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